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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    The issue is the timing. All of that has to happen within a generation. That works for preterists but not futurists.
    I don't understand why you think that. The idea that the early followers who heard Jesus say all that were even still alive around 70 AD is itself highly debatable. If the average follower was in their 20s, they would have been 60-70s during the event. What was a generation back then? What was the average life span -- 40-50 years? That gets pretty shaky. It also fits better in the future (especially where we are now) because of our communication technology. We get reports about all these events taking place all around the world much faster and more cumulatively, thus all these things can easily be fulfilled within a future generation. Look how much anxiety this pandemic event alone is causing the world over in just a matter of a few months. That would have never even been remotely possible just a few decades ago, much less in the ancient world.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
      No it doesn't, and it takes an especially low IQ to say something this stupid. I thought you were dusting off your feet? Buzz off.
      Planned to, but then you said nothing the Lord said applied to us now, so I had to correct you to honor Him. In other words, you went from merely stupidly denying my help to blasphemously insulting the Lord. What, in your mind, differentiates this speech of the Lord's "given to peasants 2,000 years ago" to any other He gave? I'd have more respect for you if you admitted you spoke in foolish haste, but again, being fundamentally dishonest is why you're not a futurist and woefully unprepared for what is already upon us, to say nothing of what is coming.

      Comment


      • #78
        So now we know that there are angels imprisoned in a "special place in hell" awaiting "the day of judgement". But this cannot mean the judgment following the resurrection before the throne of Christ, because they are said to be released to kill a third of mankind. The "day of judgment" spoken of can only mean the "Day of the Lord", the proverbial "day" that God judges the nations/Gentiles/members of Daniel's "statue" for their rebellion to His rule. This period is also knows as the tribulation. And this period most certainly did not occur in the first century, at the least because angels did not ascend from hell to slaughter a third of mankind.
        Good luck spiritualizing this away, preterists.
        If the "day of judgement" is the tribulation why does Hebrews say:

        Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

        As far as spiritualizing goes, why does Paul say:

        2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
        The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

        https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

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        • #79
          Originally posted by eschaton View Post
          If the "day of judgement" is the tribulation why does Hebrews say:

          Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

          As far as spiritualizing goes, why does Paul say:

          2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
          Emphasis on "day" of judgment. That immediately separates it from the eternal judgment. This is a "day" of judgment within time. And unlike the "days" of Gentile rule which precede it and the "day" of millennial rule which follows, this "day" is judgment on said Gentile nations and brings about the conditions for the "day" of the Lord's reign on earth.

          By "spiritualizing", I meant the preterist tendency to "interpret" Scripture privately (despite Peter's injunction against doing so) with whatever flight of fancy appeals to them that day. The truly spiritual encompasses whatever is true, whether it be literal, figurative or some classification that currently eludes us because His ways are as high above ours as the heavens are above the earth.

          Comment


          • #80
            Scripture Verse: Psalm 102

            A prayer of an afflicted person who has grown weak and pours out a lament before the Lord.
            1
            Hear my prayer, Lord;
            let my cry for help come to you.
            2
            Do not hide your face from me
            when I am in distress.
            Turn your ear to me;
            when I call, answer me quickly.
            3
            For my days vanish like smoke;
            my bones burn like glowing embers.
            4
            My heart is blighted and withered like grass;
            I forget to eat my food.
            5
            In my distress I groan aloud
            and am reduced to skin and bones.
            6
            I am like a desert owl,
            like an owl among the ruins.
            7
            I lie awake; I have become
            like a bird alone on a roof.
            8
            All day long my enemies taunt me;
            those who rail against me use my name as a curse.
            9
            For I eat ashes as my food
            and mingle my drink with tears
            10
            because of your great wrath,
            for you have taken me up and thrown me aside.
            11
            My days are like the evening shadow;
            I wither away like grass.
            12
            But you, Lord, sit enthroned forever;
            your renown endures through all generations.
            13
            You will arise and have compassion on Zion,
            for it is time to show favor to her;
            the appointed time has come.

            14
            For her stones are dear to your servants;
            her very dust moves them to pity.
            15
            The nations will fear the name of the Lord,
            all the kings of the earth will revere your glory.
            16
            For the Lord will rebuild Zion
            and appear in his glory
            .
            17
            He will respond to the prayer of the destitute;
            he will not despise their plea.
            18
            Let this be written for a future generation,
            that a people not yet created may praise the Lord
            :
            19
            “The Lord looked down from his sanctuary on high,
            from heaven he viewed the earth,
            20
            to hear the groans of the prisoners
            and release those condemned to death.”
            21
            So the name of the Lord will be declared in Zion
            and his praise in Jerusalem
            22
            when the peoples and the kingdoms
            assemble to worship the Lord.
            23
            In the course of my life he broke my strength;
            he cut short my days.
            24
            So I said:
            “Do not take me away, my God, in the midst of my days;
            your years go on through all generations.
            25
            In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
            and the heavens are the work of your hands.
            26
            They will perish, but you remain;
            they will all wear out like a garment.
            Like clothing you will change them
            and they will be discarded.
            27
            But you remain the same,
            and your years will never end.
            28
            The children of your servants will live in your presence;
            their descendants will be established before you.”

            © Copyright Original Source

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            • #81
              Originally posted by seanD View Post
              The idea that the early followers who heard Jesus say all that were even still alive around 70 AD is itself highly debatable.
              John, at least, would have most likely lived well past that, given the various writings that explicitly or implicitly describe him as living into the late first century.

              If the average follower was in their 20s, they would have been 60-70s during the event. What was a generation back then? What was the average life span -- 40-50 years? That gets pretty shaky.
              Well, if we don't count those who died in childhood (which drags the average lifespan a lot and is what contributes to the misleading idea that people back then usually died in their 20's or 30's), I believe the average lifespan back then would have been more like 50-60. But even if we go with 40-50, the thing about an average lifespan is that it's average. People can live decades longer than that.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                John, at least, would have most likely lived well past that, given the various writings that explicitly or implicitly describe him as living into the late first century.


                Well, if we don't count those who died in childhood (which drags the average lifespan a lot and is what contributes to the misleading idea that people back then usually died in their 20's or 30's), I believe the average lifespan back then would have been more like 50-60. But even if we go with 40-50, the thing about an average lifespan is that it's average. People can live decades longer than that.
                You're pretty much grasping at straws though. He didn't say "a few of you" or "some of you won't pass away," he said a generation. I interpret that as a population age. The question is, what is considered a generation back then? From 1 BC to 50 AD? Hmm, that's iffy. 1 BC to 70 AD, you're stretching it. I believe today we consider 30 years a generation. Why would the ancients consider anything longer than that? 30 years doesn't even come close to the interval between Jesus and the event itself (the actual culmination of the event lasted to 73 AD). Sure, anything's possible, and you might be able to twist it a certain way to make it remotely possible, but you're really stretching it. As opposed to a future situation where these things could be fulfilled within a decade and that information received worldwide just as quickly.
                "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                  Emphasis on "day" of judgment. That immediately separates it from the eternal judgment. This is a "day" of judgment within time. And unlike the "days" of Gentile rule which precede it and the "day" of millennial rule which follows, this "day" is judgment on said Gentile nations and brings about the conditions for the "day" of the Lord's reign on earth.

                  By "spiritualizing", I meant the preterist tendency to "interpret" Scripture privately (despite Peter's injunction against doing so) with whatever flight of fancy appeals to them that day. The truly spiritual encompasses whatever is true, whether it be literal, figurative or some classification that currently eludes us because His ways are as high above ours as the heavens are above the earth.
                  The problem I have with this is that to me, you resort to the "letter" rather than to the spirit of prophecy (2 Pet 1:20). I don't really disagree with you about preterism. I was originally a premillennialist before I switched a-millennial idealism. Preterism has never made any sense to me. IMO, the heretical form of preterism is more consistent in its interpretation than the partial type, which seems to jump around depending on the interpreter's subjective opinion. But I don't see where premillennialism is any better. I've always been fascinated with Bible prophecy since I used to listen to Southwest Radio Church and Dr. Webber out of Oklahoma City. That was at my dear sweet Dispensational grandmother's house some sixty years ago. In the last few years, I've read about 300 books related to the subject. I still have to find the verse where Jesus says we must take the scriptures literally.

                  As you know Jesus taught in parables. He described the end of the world in several places, and he actually says the "end of the world" in the parable about the tares (13:39-40, 49). In his description, I don't find an earthly kingdom on earth for a thousand years. There are the growing seasons (earthly life), the harvest, and the judgment. I find that consistent with the rest of the Bible's teachings. Revelation is a highly symbolic book and I find it consistent with the rest of scripture, including Matthew 13 and the Olivet Discourse. I don't take the OT promises to Israel literally either. As you say, "His ways are as high above ours as the heavens are above the earth."
                  The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

                  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by eschaton View Post
                    The problem I have with this is that to me, you resort to the "letter" rather than to the spirit of prophecy (2 Pet 1:20). I don't really disagree with you about preterism. I was originally a premillennialist before I switched a-millennial idealism. Preterism has never made any sense to me. IMO, the heretical form of preterism is more consistent in its interpretation than the partial type, which seems to jump around depending on the interpreter's subjective opinion. But I don't see where premillennialism is any better. I've always been fascinated with Bible prophecy since I used to listen to Southwest Radio Church and Dr. Webber out of Oklahoma City. That was at my dear sweet Dispensational grandmother's house some sixty years ago. In the last few years, I've read about 300 books related to the subject. I still have to find the verse where Jesus says we must take the scriptures literally.

                    As you know Jesus taught in parables. He described the end of the world in several places, and he actually says the "end of the world" in the parable about the tares (13:39-40, 49). In his description, I don't find an earthly kingdom on earth for a thousand years. There are the growing seasons (earthly life), the harvest, and the judgment. I find that consistent with the rest of the Bible's teachings. Revelation is a highly symbolic book and I find it consistent with the rest of scripture, including Matthew 13 and the Olivet Discourse. I don't take the OT promises to Israel literally either. As you say, "His ways are as high above ours as the heavens are above the earth."
                    The Word of God--who is Christ--encompasses both "the letter" and "the spirit". "I have not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it." And "You should have done the latter without neglecting the former."

                    It comes down to accepting that this world is still run by Satan--the "god of this world"--with God for the past couple of thousand years "only" intervening to keep a hedge of protection around His individual people and even then sometimes lifting that so they can be witnesses of Christ. The evidence that the devil still controls this world is legion, beginning with the untold number of deaths in the 20th century alone, a horror that is easily forgotten by most, but not all. There is no evidence whatsoever that the kingdom of Christ has "conquered" the world.

                    That being the case, God foretells in both the OT and NT how He will one day regather "His" people (a second time, to quote Isaiah) to form a nation that is His. Not a nation "without borders", but a nation like other nations, unlike only in that it will be "founded in righteousness" and the knowledge of God will flow out to the nations "from His mountain".

                    The reason the Antichrist feels compelled to disrupt the services in the rebuilt temple is because it is perceived as an unacceptable affront to his master, the devil, and to himself. I know of no way to make sense of Paul's direct claim that this will happen by "spiritualizing" it. He gives the scenario as a specific time marker, to my mind specifically to avoid any assertion that it can be "symbolic" and some sort of "eternal principle." "That day cannot come until..." and "when you see...spoken of by Daniel the prophet...flee!"

                    The proper literal interpretation will always be superior to any "spiritual" interpretation because it includes, informs, manifests and gives discernible bounds to the spiritual. We can only come to the Father through the Son.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      You're pretty much grasping at straws though. He didn't say "a few of you" or "some of you won't pass away," he said a generation. I interpret that as a population age. The question is, what is considered a generation back then? From 1 BC to 50 AD? Hmm, that's iffy. 1 BC to 70 AD, you're stretching it. I believe today we consider 30 years a generation. Why would the ancients consider anything longer than that? 30 years doesn't even come close to the interval between Jesus and the event itself (the actual culmination of the event lasted to 73 AD). Sure, anything's possible, and you might be able to twist it a certain way to make it remotely possible, but you're really stretching it. As opposed to a future situation where these things could be fulfilled within a decade and that information received worldwide just as quickly.
                      It's pretty much agreed on that Christ died somewhere between 30 AD and 33 AD. (Not 1BC) As to how long a generation was considered to be, the answer varies greatly. When I was a futurist, I always heard a generation was 40 years, but I've seen as little as 27 years to as much as 100 years. If Christ died in 33 AD, then the war in 70 AD fits in perfectly with the 40 year number.
                      Last edited by Littlejoe; 04-08-2020, 03:29 PM.
                      "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                      "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                        It's pretty much agreed on that Christ died somewhere between 30 AD and 33 AD. (Not 1BC) As to how long a generation was considered to be, the answer varies greatly. When I was a futurist, I always heard a generation was 40 years, but I've seen as little as 27 years to as much as 100 years. If Christ died in 33 AD, then the war in 70 AD fits in perfectly with the 40 year number.
                        It definitely fits. You could come up with any number to make it fit perfectly. Like I said, "you might be able to twist it a certain way to make it remotely possible, but you're really stretching it." I guess a study on what the ancients considered a generation would be appropriate here, but I would imagine that's not an endeavor a preterist would be that enthused to tackle.
                        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Scripture Verse: Romans 2

                          1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
                          6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Gentile, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Gentile. 11 For God shows no partiality.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          Well would you look at that. The answer has been there the whole time. Tribulation for the Jews in 70 AD and tribulation for the rest of the world in the end days. Praise God for settling that for us.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by seanD View Post
                            It definitely fits. You could come up with any number to make it fit perfectly. Like I said, "you might be able to twist it a certain way to make it remotely possible, but you're really stretching it." I guess a study on what the ancients considered a generation would be appropriate here, but I would imagine that's not an endeavor a preterist would be that enthused to tackle.
                            No Sean, that's a nice hand wave but it's only a stretch in your mind because you're predisposed to reject it outright.

                            Why is it only a preterist endeavor? If you want to know so bad, study it yourself. I've always stuck to the 40 year rule myself and didn't really think it needed to be studied.
                            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                            "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                              No Sean, that's a nice hand wave but it's only a stretch in your mind because you're predisposed to reject it outright.

                              Why is it only a preterist endeavor? If you want to know so bad, study it yourself. I've always stuck to the 40 year rule myself and didn't really think it needed to be studied.
                              I'm honestly not hand waving it because, as a futurist, I have no skin in the game. What constitutes a generation doesn't affect futurism one way or the other. It affects preterism, and I don't see how you can fit that whole fulfillment into a generation. Let's assume a generation began at the point Jesus spoke those words in the OD and not around the time Jesus himself was born or the birth of his audience (and that's a HUGE assumption!), where's your proof ancients considered a generation 40 years when they didn't even live as long as we do, nor did they have children as late on average as we do? It sounds like it's just a convenient number to stretch it to 70 AD. I'm just being honest.
                              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                                I'm honestly not hand waving it because, as a futurist, I have no skin in the game. What constitutes a generation doesn't affect futurism one way or the other. It affects preterism, and I don't see how you can fit that whole fulfillment into a generation. Let's assume a generation began at the point Jesus spoke those words in the OD and not around the time Jesus himself was born or the birth of his audience (and that's a HUGE assumption!), where's your proof ancients considered a generation 40 years when they didn't even live as long as we do, nor did they have children as late on average as we do? It sounds like it's just a convenient number to stretch it to 70 AD. I'm just being honest.
                                I guess you missed the part where I said I got the 40 year number from futurists writers? Here, I've done your homework for you, see here and here for just 2 examples. They were interpreting signs and saying that when these signs started, (were already starting in their estimation) the tribulation would start within 40 years...

                                Also, you're ignoring what Terraceth post earlier about the life expectancy was shorter because of high infant mortality rates. That skews the number way down. So, yes, you're are hand waving it.

                                I'm not trying to conveniently stretch anything, I'm using what I've always been taught. If you have evidence to the contrary present it or concede it's plausible.
                                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                                Comment

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