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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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Special place in hell (for preterists)

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  • #31
    Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
    I do discuss the various views of the end times but not if it's going to end up with condemnation of each other. Which is what Darfius is suggesting with his thread title. It's clear he was out to rattle a few cage bars and not in a good way.
    I agree. That method might have been appropriate a decade ago, but now it's pretty chill.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Darfius View Post
      Hellenization, however, had its limitations. For example, areas of southern Syria that were affected by Greek culture entailed mostly Seleucid urban centres, where Greek was commonly spoken. The countryside, on the other hand, was largely unaffected, with most of its inhabitants speaking Syriac and clinging to their native traditions.[12]

      Archaeological evidence alone gives only an incomplete picture of Hellenization; it is often not possible to state with certainty whether particular archaeological findings belonged to Greeks, Hellenized indigenous peoples, indigenous people who simply owned Greek-style objects or some combination of these groups.


      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenization
      All you did was show that some areas, generally rural, weren't Hellenized and not demonstrate that "Hellenistic" ≠ "Greek"

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #33
        Fair or not, my impression of the currently fashionable evangelical scholar, Michael Heiser, is that he does the same thing as Darfius is doing in this thread - correctly sheds light on the background of some of what is referenced in the Bible; in this case, the Greek background of Tartarus, but then uses that to then smuggle in the assumption that the Bible then affirms as true what is said about these other things. The same thing could be said about 1 Enoch; people notice that it is cited in Jude, but then extrapolate from this that everything else said in that book must be true. For starters, no serious scholar that I'm aware of thinks that 1 Enoch was actually written by Enoch, but rather that it was written several millennia after Genesis takes place.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          Fair or not, my impression of the currently fashionable evangelical scholar, Michael Heiser, is that he does the same thing as Darfius is doing in this thread - correctly sheds light on the background of some of what is referenced in the Bible; in this case, the Greek background of Tartarus, but then uses that to then smuggle in the assumption that the Bible then affirms as true what is said about these other things. The same thing could be said about 1 Enoch; people notice that it is cited in Jude, but then extrapolate from this that everything else said in that book must be true. For starters, no serious scholar that I'm aware of thinks that 1 Enoch was actually written by Enoch, but rather that it was written several millennia after Genesis takes place.
          You said that much better than I could have or did.
          "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

          "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            Fair or not, my impression of the currently fashionable evangelical scholar, Michael Heiser, is that he does the same thing as Darfius is doing in this thread - correctly sheds light on the background of some of what is referenced in the Bible; in this case, the Greek background of Tartarus, but then uses that to then smuggle in the assumption that the Bible then affirms as true what is said about these other things. The same thing could be said about 1 Enoch; people notice that it is cited in Jude, but then extrapolate from this that everything else said in that book must be true. For starters, no serious scholar that I'm aware of thinks that 1 Enoch was actually written by Enoch, but rather that it was written several millennia after Genesis takes place.
            I don't think, in fact I know, I've ever heard a Christian using Jude's citation of the BoE and concluding the entire BoE we have now is legit. What they do (and I remember starting a thread about this very subject, maybe in the old forum) is compare certain phrases from both Peter and Jude to phrases in the BoE that are remarkably similar, too similar to be coincidence, and thus conclude that the earliest belief about the "sons of God" in Genesis were in fact angels. Or at least that's what Peter and Jude (inspired writers) believed, contrary to what the skeptics argue about that Genesis incident. If they didn't have a complete BoE manuscript, or even if it was remarkably different than it is now, they were definitely drawing from a common tradition.
            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by seanD View Post
              Is that what I said in the post you initially responded to?
              I asked the question because I said:

              Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
              If you believe as Darfius does that unless you're a futurist, you're going to hell, then you will also be mostly ignored
              As he clearly states here:
              Originally posted by Darfius View Post
              Yes, this response has become popular since I began arguing futurism here with gusto again. "I don't have the ability to defend my arguments, Darfius, but wait(!), I don't even need to because I'm always ready to meet my Maker, whether I believe and act on the truth or not." Fraid not, Piglet.

              Scripture Verse: John 4

              23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

              © Copyright Original Source



              Scripture Verse: Matthew 15


              7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
              8
              “‘These people honor me with their lips,
              but their hearts are far from me.
              9
              They worship me in vain;
              their teachings are merely human rules.’

              © Copyright Original Source



              Scripture Verse: Matthew 7

              21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

              © Copyright Original Source



              I did a Bible search for "signed by the seal of the cross" and came up emptyhanded. Mind citing the chapter and verse for me? Or is that another one of those "holy" phrases that sounds nice but is not the sort of worship the Father seeks because while you honor Him with your lips, your heart is far from Him?
              I meant that your preterism is merely a half-hearted belief that is reactionary to "the traditions of your fathers". You did not actually seek out the truth either way but were content with secondhand information. Because you are a decent enough person to wish to identify as Christian, but not good enough to actually be one. You "have a form of godliness, but deny its power."
              to which you responded:

              Originally posted by seanD View Post
              You can ignore me all you want, bro. No skin off my nose. It's a free country (so far)
              I thought it was clear ignoring you would be tied to that belief that preterist were not in the "saved" camp. If that's not what you believe that it's safe to say you will not be ignored (at least by me). But, I'm not keen on the fight anymore. I believe what I believe, based on where I believe God led me...it's going to be hard to dissuade me otherwise and I know you feel the same so...
              Last edited by Littlejoe; 04-01-2020, 04:29 PM.
              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                Fair or not, my impression of the currently fashionable evangelical scholar, Michael Heiser, is that he does the same thing as Darfius is doing in this thread - correctly sheds light on the background of some of what is referenced in the Bible; in this case, the Greek background of Tartarus, but then uses that to then smuggle in the assumption that the Bible then affirms as true what is said about these other things. The same thing could be said about 1 Enoch; people notice that it is cited in Jude, but then extrapolate from this that everything else said in that book must be true. For starters, no serious scholar that I'm aware of thinks that 1 Enoch was actually written by Enoch, but rather that it was written several millennia after Genesis takes place.
                Likewise, on Mars' Hill Paul quotes the Greek poet Aratus' Phaenomena in Acts 17:28, Menander's Thais in I Corinthians 15:33 and, in Titus 1:12, "One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own" (identified as Epimenides by Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata). Further when Paul refers to kicking against the pricks or goads in Acts 26:14 that term comes from Aeschylus' Agamemnon and FWIU, according to Origen, his references to Jannes & Jambres (2 Timothy 3:8) is from an apocryphal book, according to Origen.

                Obviously that doesn't mean Christians should therefore consider Phaenomena, Thais, Agamemnon and whichever of Epimenides' works are therefore divinely inspired

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                  I asked the question because I said:

                  As he clearly states here:

                  to which you responded:

                  I thought it was clear ignoring you would be tied to that belief that preterist were not in the "saved" camp. If that's not what you believe that it's safe to say you will not be ignored (at least by me). But, I'm not keen on the fight anymore. I believe what I believe, based on where I believe God led me...it's going to be hard to dissuade me otherwise and I know you feel the same so...
                  I was responding to this:

                  Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                  If you believe as Darfius does that unless you're a futurist, you're going to hell, then you will also be mostly ignored.
                  I'm just some anonymous schmoe on the internet, with no formal education in theology or any of these topics I talk about. Whether someone takes or leaves my arguments is their choice, and it's fine with me.
                  "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                    Yes, this response has become popular since I began arguing futurism here with gusto again. "I don't have the ability to defend my arguments, Darfius, but wait(!), I don't even need to because I'm always ready to meet my Maker, whether I believe and act on the truth or not." Fraid not, Piglet.

                    Scripture Verse: John 4

                    23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Scripture Verse: Matthew 15


                    7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
                    8
                    “‘These people honor me with their lips,
                    but their hearts are far from me.
                    9
                    They worship me in vain;
                    their teachings are merely human rules.’

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Scripture Verse: Matthew 7

                    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    I did a Bible search for "signed by the seal of the cross" and came up emptyhanded. Mind citing the chapter and verse for me? Or is that another one of those "holy" phrases that sounds nice but is not the sort of worship the Father seeks because while you honor Him with your lips, your heart is far from Him?



                    I meant that your preterism is merely a half-hearted belief that is reactionary to "the traditions of your fathers". You did not actually seek out the truth either way but were content with secondhand information. Because you are a decent enough person to wish to identify as Christian, but not good enough to actually be one. You "have a form of godliness, but deny its power."
                    I'll be interested in discussing things with you when you become more interested in attempting to understand my position (if only to thereby refute it) than you are in being an unmitigated ass. All you're managing to convince me of here is that I want no part in your conception of eternity.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      If there ever was a case to make that preterists are destined to hell, I think Matthew 24:30-31 would be a pretty strong case, only because I honestly don't believe preterists actually believe that that DOESN'T represent Jesus' return and that it instead represents the 70 AD war. There's just no way I can believe they can make that logical leap and actually truly believe that. In fact, that's the one passage that convinces me beyond doubt preterism is false and its adherents are being totally disingenuous and even bordering on lying.
                      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by seanD View Post
                        If there ever was a case to make that preterists are destined to hell, I think Matthew 24:30-31 would be a pretty strong case, only because I honestly don't believe preterists actually believe that that DOESN'T represent Jesus' return and that it instead represents the 70 AD war. There's just no way I can believe they can make that logical leap and actually truly believe that. In fact, that's the one passage that convinces me beyond doubt preterism is false and its adherents are being totally disingenuous and even bordering on lying.
                        I actually believe that it represents the AD 70 war, in which Jesus came "on the clouds with power". I am not lying or being the slightest bit disingenuous when I say that; there are quite valid reasons for believing so (Dee Dee laid out the case quite clearly in her commentary). Your post says rather more about you than it does me.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          I actually believe that it represents the AD 70 war, in which Jesus came "on the clouds with power". I am not lying or being the slightest bit disingenuous when I say that; there are quite valid reasons for believing so (Dee Dee laid out the case quite clearly in her commentary). Your post says rather more about you than it does me.
                          Assuming I believe you (and that's a real stretch for me to do because it's just totally illogical to believe that about that passage), what makes you think Jesus was using symbolism there? The OD is not at all like Rev, which is arguably rife with at least some metaphor and symbolism. There's no indication anywhere in the entire discourse he was using coded words or symbolism as opposed to telling it straight forward and just how things would happen. Why should I believe he all of a sudden switches to symbolism only at that moment?
                          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by seanD View Post
                            Assuming I believe you (and that's a real stretch for me to do because it's just totally illogical to believe that about that passage), what makes you think Jesus was using symbolism there? The OD is not at all like Rev, which is arguably rife with at least some metaphor and symbolism. There's no indication anywhere in the entire discourse he was using coded words or symbolism as opposed to telling it straight forward and just how things would happen. Why should I believe he all of a sudden switches to symbolism only at that moment?
                            Again, you're showing rather more about you than me with this post. There is plenty of symbolism in the Olivet Discourse (it is, after all, referred to as "the little apocalypse", even by non-preterists). That you're too ignorant to see it doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe try fixing your ignorance rather than spouting off willy-nilly?
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Again, you're showing rather more about you than me with this post. There is plenty of symbolism in the Olivet Discourse (it is, after all, referred to as "the little apocalypse", even by non-preterists). That you're too ignorant to see it doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe try fixing your ignorance rather than spouting off willy-nilly?
                              That's what I thought.

                              And btw, I'll also add, it makes it even more disingenuous to me to assume you believe Matthew's description is not the same event as described in 1 Thess. I mean it's practically the same description, albeit with a little more detail on Paul's part.
                              Last edited by seanD; 04-03-2020, 01:45 PM.
                              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                                That's what I thought.

                                And btw, I'll also add, it makes it even more disingenuous to me to assume you believe Matthew's description is not the same event as described in 1 Thess. I mean it's practically the same description, albeit with a little more detail on Paul's part.
                                You know what happens when people assume, yes?

                                There are two events described in 1 Thess; the end of chapter 4 is a different literary unit than the beginning of chapter 5, raising a different subject (note that 4:9, 4:13, and 5:1 use identical language in introducing their new subject). The beginning of chapter 5 is describing the same event as the OD, yes. What does that have to do with your ignorance?
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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