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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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  • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I don't know why you appear unable to follow my arguments. You could, perhaps, ask for further explanation rather than completely ignore that I'm providing support for a point. I'll freely admit that I tend to err on the side of brevity, but I provided more support for my argument than you did (I had to essentially re-read all of 1 Thessalonians and figure out what the heck you were referring to). Here, I'll spell it out in more detail:

    My NKJV denotes paragraph breaks in the Greek, though those merely confirm the evidence I already provided. It also has subject headings in the same places, which also merely confirm the evidence I provided.

    1 Thes. 4:1-8 is a discrete subject.

    Verse 9 starts "But concerning brotherly love....", introducing a new subject; vv. 9-12 are a different topic.

    Verse 13 starts "But I do not want you to be ignorant....", introducing another subject; vv. 13-18 are a literary unit.

    Chapter 5, verse 1 starts, "But concerning the times....", introducing another subject; vv. 1-11 are a literary unit.

    Thus, the end of chapter 4 and the beginning of chapter 5 are different subjects. It is 5:1-11 which is parallel with the Olivet Discourse; 4:13-18 do not appear in the Olivet Discourse at all.
    That link brought up Isaiah's "Song of the Vineyard" in Isaiah 5 - was that the passage you intended to refer to ? I think that the site interpreted the words bolded in red in the last sentence of your post as a reference to Isaiah.
    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 06-16-2021, 07:46 PM.

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    • Originally posted by eschaton View Post

      I think the idea that the literal sense has something to do with author intent was brought in by some of the Reformers who disliked traditional allegorical interpretation. It is part of some modern theological theories. It implies that the author couldn't use a metaphor to express himself.
      That second sentence is news to me, and has nothing to do with my meaning.
      Or else any metaphor the author uses has to be considered literal. If metaphor is literal, then all writing is literal and there really isn't such a thing as a metaphor. Some of the later Reformers said that symbolic writing was "double literal."

      If we have to understand metaphor as literal because that is what the author intended, then Nicodemus was right about re-entering his mother's womb (John 3:4). I prefer the biblical explanation that wisdom is expressed in parable and simile.
      Of course metaphors have to be taken "literally" - in one sense. The letter of them, which is the "vehicle" of the metaphor, is essential to the reading or hearing of the text that signifies the burden of meaning that functions as a metaphor. It is through the words of a metaphor, or through any other expression, that we have at least some access to the meaning intended by the speaker or author.

      People often talk about (say) "taking Genesis 3 literally", when what they seem to mean is, "taking Genesis 3 as describing historically real events". I think they confuse four things:

      1. reality
      2. the specifically historical kind of reality
      3. truth - which is of several kinds, including historical truth
      4. the meaning of words

      Metaphorical language is figurative. As is much of the Bible. The use of rhetorical figures is so normal a way of speaking, that people do it without noticing. And as the Biblical books are as fully human as they are fully Divine, it should not be a surprise to find them using figurative language.

      The meaning of a metaphor, is not in the parts (that is, the words) of which it is composed, but in the meaning it is intended to convey. Someome with an elementary knowledge of English will not get very by referring to a dictionary, when he wants to find out what is meant by "It is raining cats and dogs" - because the words, even taken all together, do not explain, or even imply, the usage of those words in the metaphorical expression. The expression is a normal English figure of speech, which is used for expressing the meaning "It is raining heavily". To rephrase it as "Cats and dogs are falling down from the sky" translates the dictionary meanings of the words in the phrase - but thoroughly distorts the meaning intended by the phrase, functioning as a totality when it is intended metaphorically.

      The truth - if any - of the metaphor, lies, not in the words that are the vehicle of the metaphor, but, in the metaphor expressed by the vehicle. Once the true meaning of the metaphor is grasped, the intellect of the hearer can judge whether what the metaphor expresses is true, or not.

      "I am the Mouth of Sauron" is a metaphor. And, in context, a true statement, conveying the meaning that he was the messenger of Sauron, as he says a few lines later. It is true, not within the Primary World we inhabit, but within the "feigned reality" of the Tolkieverse.

      "Our God is a consuming fire" is a metaphor. It is also a truth. That something is spoken of through a metaphor, does not indicate whether that "something" is in any sense real. But neither is a metaphor inherently false. It is a vehicle for meaning - not that meaning itself.

      "The trees of the field shall clap their hands" is a metaphor.

      "Queen Elizabeth is the Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" is a true statement, about an historically real person.

      "Manwe Sulimo is the King of the Valar" is a statement, that is true as a statement of fact within the "feigned reality" of Tolkien's Legendarium.

      "Hagar is a mountain in Arabia" looks like a statement of fact about something in the Primary World. It has the same verbal form as "Ben Nevis is a mountain in Scotland". The two statements both appear to be intended to give geographical info. The rest of Galatians 4 shows that the passage about a mountain in Arabia is not concerned with geography, but is an allegory. St Paul's overall way of speaking shows what type of writing he intends to compose.
      Proverbs 1:5-7 (E
      5 Let the wise hear and increase in learning,
      and the one who understands obtain guidance,
      6 to understand a proverb and a saying,
      the words of the wise and their riddles.ress

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allego...n_of_the_Bible
      The notion of literality is ambiguous - which is unhelpful.

      What do you understand by the notion of literality ?

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