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  • Digging in the archives here...

    I hope I will be pardoned for not reading every page of this thread before I post something. I'd just like to address the original challenge by Darfius in the OP...about the four "angels" bound at the Euphrates, and the "third of men" who died in this particular "second woe" judgment (which was the same as the sixth angel's trumpet judgment).

    In the first place, let me say that I agree with Darfius' first comments about the "sons of God" who "left their first estate" to marry human women and thus produce an unclean, hybrid angel / human progeny in the days before Noah's flood. But, setting that whole discussion aside, the particular "angels" in Revelation 9:14-15 were NOT celestial creatures. The word for "angels" in Greek simply means "messenger" - whether human or divine messengers. It just depends on the scripture context as to which one is intended. And in this Revelation 9 context, these were HUMAN messengers that were first "bound at the Euphrates", and then "loosed" at a very specific hour, day, month, and year to slay the third part of men.

    The entire account of this sixth trumpet judgment (the second woe) is prophesied in great detail, starting in Revelation 9:13 and finishing up finally in Revelation 11:14. It is a fascinating story about a particular period that Josephus (without realizing the connection) already covered in his Wars accounts (Wars 4.4-5). Many specific numbers Josephus mentioned are an exact match with the Revelation sixth-trumpet prophecy, which had predicted the whole story beforehand. This story involved the Idumean troops which were tricked into invading Jerusalem a year or so after the Jewish war with the Romans had begun in AD 66.

    At that time, there were THREE factions then present in Jerusalem that were contending with one another for supremacy. Put a red flag beside these 3 numbers. #1, the moderate priesthood faction led by Ananas, son of Annas, a former high priest who wanted to retain stability to preserve a functioning temple system. #2, Eleazar and his radical Zealot followers, and #3, the conniving rebel leader John of Gischala, who played both of the other sides against each other in order to advance his own position. Hoping to get rid of his rival Ananas, John instigated the whole Idumean invasion when he caused a rumor to be sent to the Idumeans that Ananas was planning to surrender the city to the Romans. Believing this lie, the war-mongering Idumeans immediately got together an army of *20,000 horsemen* - "TWO myriads of myriads" as the Greek has it in Rev. 9:16 (NOT the mistaken 200 MILLION amount that is so frequently mistranslated, since one "myriad" is only ten thousand).

    These 20,000 Idumean horsemen were led by no less and no more than FOUR commanders (Josephus lists these four by name). These were the "four angels" or "four messengers" of Rev. 9:14-15. When these 20,000 Idumean horsemen and their four commanders arrived at Jerusalem's main gates, they found that Ananus the former high priest had barred the gates against admitting them. In other words, they were "bound" at the entrance of the city. Just how does the River Euphrates come into this picture? Because Jerusalem, "that great city" in Revelation, was symbolically called "Babylon the Great", and ancient Babylon's entrance had its barred gates submerged in the middle of the River Euphrates which flowed into the city, virtually dividing it in two on either side. To be "bound at the Euphrates" meant that symbolically, the four Idumean commanders were denied entrance at the main gates of "Babylon the Great" (Jerusalem).

    This restriction enraged the Idumeans, who were not appeased even when Joshua (another moderate, former high priest) pleaded with them from over the wall to return to reason, telling the Idumeans that they had been duped into believing a lie. That night a "prodigious storm" broke out at Jerusalem, with "the bellowings of an earthquake" Josephus said (which was the "great earthquake" at Jerusalem that Revelation 11:13 predicted). Under cover of the noise generated by the storm, the Zealot faction opposed to the moderate high priest Ananas' party managed to saw open the bars of Jerusalem's gates and "loosed" the four commanders and the Idumean army of 20,000 through those gates into the city, to attack Ananus and those under his command. This was very similar to the one-night takedown of ancient Babylon by Cyrus, whose army broke into ancient Babylon that night of Belshazzar's feast by going under the River Euphrates' barred gates. Cyrus had diverted the flow of the Euphratese into other channels, and thus lowered the water level enough so that his army could go underneath the submerged Euphrates gates, thus taking down the empire of the Chaldeans in a single night.

    By the next morning, Josephus wrote that between the earthquake and the Idumean and Zealot attack, there were 8,000 men that were dead, including the murder of both former high priests, Ananus and Joshua (the "two witnesses"). This 8,000 number seems to be on target with Rev. 11:13, which says "there were slain of men 7,000" in that same hour as the storm. This number of casualties in the sixth trumpet judgment is the equivalent of "the third part of men" who were slain by the two myriads of horsemen in Rev. 9:15 This was NOT a third part of men in the entire globe, because this prophecy was describing an event that would take place in Jerusalem alone - "where Christ was crucified" (Rev. 11:8).

    With the death of the two former high priests, that entire moderate THIRD faction of Ananas' men in the city was destroyed. Those two high priests who had labored so hard to preserve the status quo in Jerusalem against the rebellious Zealots had their dead bodies stripped naked and left unburied in the streets of Jerusalem by their enemies (as Rev. 11:9 predicted). Their enemies stood on the dead bodies of these two "by way of jest", Josephus said, and scolded their carcases for being the cause of the attack on the city. Revelation 11:10 said that those dwelling on the earth (tes ges - the land of Israel) would rejoice at the death of the two witnesses who had tormented them. This the Zealots did, once the moderate high priesthood party had been eliminated. After that, the inhabitants of Jerusalem were left defenseless against the unrestrained hands of the other two warring factions, who preyed on them equally from then on.

    A bit of a long story, but with a mixture of BOTH literal and symbolic included. And anyone who is fearfully anticipating this event in our future needs to relax. The angel's sixth trumpet judgment has been fulfilled to the letter looooong ago.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
      Digging in the archives here...

      I hope I will be pardoned for not reading every page of this thread before I post something. I'd just like to address the original challenge by Darfius in the OP...about the four "angels" bound at the Euphrates, and the "third of men" who died in this particular "second woe" judgment (which was the same as the sixth angel's trumpet judgment).

      In the first place, let me say that I agree with Darfius' first comments about the "sons of God" who "left their first estate" to marry human women and thus produce an unclean, hybrid angel / human progeny in the days before Noah's flood. But, setting that whole discussion aside, the particular "angels" in Revelation 9:14-15 were NOT celestial creatures. The word for "angels" in Greek simply means "messenger" - whether human or divine messengers. It just depends on the scripture context as to which one is intended. And in this Revelation 9 context, these were HUMAN messengers that were first "bound at the Euphrates", and then "loosed" at a very specific hour, day, month, and year to slay the third part of men
      Out of the 186 instances of "aggelos" in the Greek New Testament, all but five instances are translated as angel or angels, including every instance of the word in Revelation except perhaps if your special pleading here can be vindicated. And of the five instances where the word is translated messenger, two of them still clearly reference angelic beings. That you are suggesting that the word does not at the very least heavily infer a supernatural being is disingenuous at best. It also remains to be seen why an angel would be commanded to free human beings who were never bound and who it turns out "freed" themselves by sawing open city gates. As usual, the preterist interpretation is not only arbitrary and redundant, but makes even the words God Himself speaks nonsensical.

      The entire account of this sixth trumpet judgment (the second woe) is prophesied in great detail, starting in Revelation 9:13 and finishing up finally in Revelation 11:14. It is a fascinating story about a particular period that Josephus (without realizing the connection) already covered in his Wars accounts (Wars 4.4-5). Many specific numbers Josephus mentioned are an exact match with the Revelation sixth-trumpet prophecy, which had predicted the whole story beforehand. This story involved the Idumean troops which were tricked into invading Jerusalem a year or so after the Jewish war with the Romans had begun in AD 66.
      So when is John supposed to have authored Revelation by your account?

      At that time, there were THREE factions then present in Jerusalem that were contending with one another for supremacy. Put a red flag beside these 3 numbers. #1, the moderate priesthood faction led by Ananas, son of Annas, a former high priest who wanted to retain stability to preserve a functioning temple system. #2, Eleazar and his radical Zealot followers, and #3, the conniving rebel leader John of Gischala, who played both of the other sides against each other in order to advance his own position. Hoping to get rid of his rival Ananas, John instigated the whole Idumean invasion when he caused a rumor to be sent to the Idumeans that Ananas was planning to surrender the city to the Romans. Believing this lie, the war-mongering Idumeans immediately got together an army of *20,000 horsemen* - "TWO myriads of myriads" as the Greek has it in Rev. 9:16 (NOT the mistaken 200 MILLION amount that is so frequently mistranslated, since one "myriad" is only ten thousand).
      Aside from the extreme unlikelihood that you know better than the vast majority of scholarly translators, the literal Greek is 'two ten thousand ten thousand", which is an awkward way to say 20,000, the second ten thousand being redundant were that the case. But like much of Revelation, John is making an allusion to past Scripture to strengthen the effect of what he is saying:

      Scripture Verse: Daniel 7:10

      A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.

      © Copyright Original Source



      These 20,000 Idumean horsemen were led by no less and no more than FOUR commanders (Josephus lists these four by name). These were the "four angels" or "four messengers" of Rev. 9:14-15. When these 20,000 Idumean horsemen and their four commanders arrived at Jerusalem's main gates, they found that Ananus the former high priest had barred the gates against admitting them. In other words, they were "bound" at the entrance of the city. Just how does the River Euphrates come into this picture? Because Jerusalem, "that great city" in Revelation, was symbolically called "Babylon the Great", and ancient Babylon's entrance had its barred gates submerged in the middle of the River Euphrates which flowed into the city, virtually dividing it in two on either side. To be "bound at the Euphrates" meant that symbolically, the four Idumean commanders were denied entrance at the main gates of "Babylon the Great" (Jerusalem).
      Again, why couldn't John merely say "the four leaders of the Idumeans at Jerusalem" if that were what he meant? This is not even a case of hiding his true intent from the Romans as I've heard preterists plead before, since you claim John is discussing an attack on Jews by Jews. Even your arbitrary symbolic interpretation is twice removed, since John doesn't say the aggelos are bound "at that great city", but rather at the Euphrates, which we must then believe to really refer to Babylon which really refers to Jerusalem, a claim which you don't even bother to provide evidence for.

      This restriction enraged the Idumeans, who were not appeased even when Joshua (another moderate, former high priest) pleaded with them from over the wall to return to reason, telling the Idumeans that they had been duped into believing a lie. That night a "prodigious storm" broke out at Jerusalem, with "the bellowings of an earthquake" Josephus said (which was the "great earthquake" at Jerusalem that Revelation 11:13 predicted). Under cover of the noise generated by the storm, the Zealot faction opposed to the moderate high priest Ananas' party managed to saw open the bars of Jerusalem's gates and "loosed" the four commanders and the Idumean army of 20,000 through those gates into the city, to attack Ananus and those under his command. This was very similar to the one-night takedown of ancient Babylon by Cyrus, whose army broke into ancient Babylon that night of Belshazzar's feast by going under the River Euphrates' barred gates. Cyrus had diverted the flow of the Euphratese into other channels, and thus lowered the water level enough so that his army could go underneath the submerged Euphrates gates, thus taking down the empire of the Chaldeans in a single night.
      Did this "great earthquake" destroy a tenth of the city and kill 7,000 people? And in what way did an angel loose the four angels/messengers if they sawed open the gate themselves? That is convoluted at best and hardly worthy to be called a "revelation of Jesus Christ".

      By the next morning, Josephus wrote that between the earthquake and the Idumean and Zealot attack, there were 8,000 men that were dead, including the murder of both former high priests, Ananus and Joshua (the "two witnesses"). This 8,000 number seems to be on target with Rev. 11:13, which says "there were slain of men 7,000" in that same hour as the storm. This number of casualties in the sixth trumpet judgment is the equivalent of "the third part of men" who were slain by the two myriads of horsemen in Rev. 9:15 This was NOT a third part of men in the entire globe, because this prophecy was describing an event that would take place in Jerusalem alone - "where Christ was crucified" (Rev. 11:8).
      The verse says the men died as a direct result of the earthquake, not "between the earthquake and the Idumean and Zealot attack." God doesn't speak in ballpark figures. Revelation 9 opens with an event clearly global in scope: an angel releasing other supernatural beings from the Abyss (how about that, an angel releasing bound supernatural agents right before the disputed passage where an angel releases bound supernatural agents). These supernatural agents are told not to harm "the grass of the earth...except for those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads."

      And in what possible way could two "moderate" Jewish priests be the two witnesses of Jesus Christ?

      With the death of the two former high priests, that entire moderate THIRD faction of Ananas' men in the city was destroyed. Those two high priests who had labored so hard to preserve the status quo in Jerusalem against the rebellious Zealots had their dead bodies stripped naked and left unburied in the streets of Jerusalem by their enemies (as Rev. 11:9 predicted). Their enemies stood on the dead bodies of these two "by way of jest", Josephus said, and scolded their carcases for being the cause of the attack on the city. Revelation 11:10 said that those dwelling on the earth (tes ges - the land of Israel) would rejoice at the death of the two witnesses who had tormented them. This the Zealots did, once the moderate high priesthood party had been eliminated. After that, the inhabitants of Jerusalem were left defenseless against the unrestrained hands of the other two warring factions, who preyed on them equally from then on.

      A bit of a long story, but with a mixture of BOTH literal and symbolic included. And anyone who is fearfully anticipating this event in our future needs to relax. The angel's sixth trumpet judgment has been fulfilled to the letter looooong ago.
      The truth emerges. This winding, unbelievable, unbiblical narrative is about soothing the fears of those who rightfully fear God's coming judgment on the world, not deciphering truth through the lens of Scripture.

      Comment


      • Evening Darfius,

        You have given an arbitrary count by your own estimation of just how many times the Greek "aggelos" refers to a celestial messenger, and how many times it speaks of a human messenger. There are more instances of human messengers (aggelos) in scripture than you suppose. This Revelation 9:14-15 reference to the 4 "aggelos" human messengers is one of them.

        The 20,000 number of horsemen (the two myriads of myriads) led by those 4 Idumean commanders / messengers is meant to hark back to Psalms 68:17. It's just as you said, Darfius, "John was making an allusion to past scripture to strengthen the effect of what he was saying." Psalms 68:17 reads, "The chariots of God are TWENTY THOUSAND, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place." Besides being a very specific number of horsemen that John heard in the vision, these two myriads were also meant to indicate that God's own battle strength of CELESTIAL 20,000 chariots was behind His use of these HUMAN 20,000 horsemen for a very specific purpose He had in mind. A purpose that had been determined and fixed for a very specific hour, day, month and year on the calendar. That purpose was to physically set aside the remnants of the formerly-approved Zadok high priesthood forever. Ananus and Joshua as former high priests were both Sadducees. Many have identified the "Sadducee" term as derived from the "Zadok" family name.

        The problem with Israel at that time was that they were refusing to acknowledge that God had set aside His formerly-approved Zadok family of the high priesthood (set up after the post-exilic return in Ezekiel 44:15-16) in favor of Christ's superior high priesthood based on the order of Melchizedek. To stubbornly cling to the former Zadok high priesthood was to make an idol of it after Jesus's anointing as our high priest had changed the law in this respect. God gave Israel a space to repent, but the majority did not. So, to make it very obvious that God had forever laid that former Zadok order of the high priesthood aside, He had to make a highly-visible physical demonstration to the Jews of those high priesthood members losing their lives. These two, Ananus and Joshua, were called "two witnesses", not because they were witnesses of Jesus's gospel, but because the high priesthood role was ever supposed to have served as God's witness to the people. They alone in the OT were to "stand before the Lord", to minister, and to keep His charge. And typically, there were supposed to be two high priests, with one "sagan" serving as a back-up, in case the other became ritually unclean in some way, and unable to fulfill his duties on the Day of Atonement. In addition, the number of TWO of them also aligned with God's requirement that "in the mouth of two witnesses let every word be established."

        You may think, Darfius, that this sixth trumpet judgment was to take place on a global scale, but that's not the setting where we see this taking place. It was in JERUSALEM, "where our Lord was crucified" (Rev. 11:8) that provided the location for the death of these two witnesses, (Ananus and Joshua, the former high priests). Anytime that Revelation uses the term "the EARTH", (tes ges), typically in scripture this refers to "the LAND" - of Israel. When it intends to show a global event, typically scripture uses the word "oikoumene", meaning the entire habitable world. And there ARE references in Revelation that use this term also.

        Just not in Revelation 9. What you think are "supernatural agents" (the "locusts") in Revelation 9 aren't that at all. Those "crowns like gold" and "hair like women" is descriptive of the first-century helmets worn by Roman soldiers, trimmed with a narrow gold forehead band, and trailing horsehair from a "crista" mounted on top. Want a link to a pic? We have unearthed samples of these very same helmets found in rubbish pits in Colchester England from the AD 60 Roman war with Queen Boudicca. Roman soldiers wearing this very same style of helmet were tormenting the Judean citizens for five literal months (May - September of AD 66) under the evil encouragement of the Judean procurator, Gessius Florus. He was was trying to goad the Jews into rebellion by his tormenting actions against the people in Israel, and he totally succeeded. Gessius Florus was the "destroyer" (the meaning of the names Abaddon and Apollyon) who is described in Revelation 9:11 - the leader of those Roman soldiers termed "locusts" who were tormenting those living in Israel at the time. Josephus tells the whole story of Gessius Florus' evil motives and torments inflicted upon the people he was supposed to be governing in Wars 2.14-16.

        You asked when John was supposed to have authored Revelation. It is proved, not by MY account, but by scripture's own internal evidence, that it was written in a narrow window of time somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60, just before the predicted Laodicean earthquake that decimated that city. If you need a link to a comment I made on another site that lists about a dozen scriptures that narrow down this date, I can supply that if you wish.

        As to the deaths incurred "IN the earthquake" (not "BY the earthquake), this was 7,000 men "SLAIN", which connotes a BATTLE - not just a reference to the storm and earthquake phenomena going on at the "same hour". The "tenth part" of the city of Jerusalem falling displays only a PARTIAL destruction of its infrastructure that took place at that time - not yet the total destruction which occurred at the close of AD 70 when every stone would be leveled with the ground.

        The sixth angel which was told to "loose" the 4 messengers did so by God supernaturally providing the occasion of the unusual storm and earthquake that night. This gave enough covering noise that the Zealots were enabled to elude Ananus's guards and to saw the bars of the gates open to admit the Idumean army of 20,000 waiting outside Jerusalem.

        It is not my intention to supply historical proofs of these past fulfilled events merely to "soothe the fears" of a coming judgment. I very much believe that our present and very near future will bring a chaotic close to a 6th millennium age, leading to the last 7th millennium period of fallen man's history on this planet. I call this rapidly approaching transition "God's Y2K". But that's a discussion for another post.
        Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 03-13-2021, 08:08 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
          Evening Darfius,
          Hello, 3 Resurrections. I have an abrupt manner by nature, but I softened my usual approach in my last post because you were respectful yourself. Thank you. You're wrong, but it's refreshing to find a thoughtful, courteous preterist.

          You have given an arbitrary count by your own estimation of just how many times the Greek "aggelos" refers to a celestial messenger, and how many times it speaks of a human messenger. There are more instances of human messengers (aggelos) in scripture than you suppose. This Revelation 9:14-15 reference to the 4 "aggelos" human messengers is one of them.
          It's not arbitrary. I looked up the occurrences, read through them and the context of each instance translated angel makes it obvious it is a supernatural being. And again, there's a reason the scholars whose field of knowledge this is translated the word that way.

          The 20,000 number of horsemen (the two myriads of myriads) led by those 4 Idumean commanders / messengers is meant to hark back to Psalms 68:17. It's just as you said, Darfius, "John was making an allusion to past scripture to strengthen the effect of what he was saying." Psalms 68:17 reads, "The chariots of God are TWENTY THOUSAND, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place." Besides being a very specific number of horsemen that John heard in the vision, these two myriads were also meant to indicate that God's own battle strength of CELESTIAL 20,000 chariots was behind His use of these HUMAN 20,000 horsemen for a very specific purpose He had in mind. A purpose that had been determined and fixed for a very specific hour, day, month and year on the calendar. That purpose was to physically set aside the remnants of the formerly-approved Zadok high priesthood forever. Ananus and Joshua as former high priests were both Sadducees. Many have identified the "Sadducee" term as derived from the "Zadok" family name.
          You did not address why John would use the redundant phrase "myriads of myriads". Is he the idiot or is God? Or is the alternative of multiplication intended?

          And Psalm 68:17 in the Septuagint [Psalm 67:18 there] uses "chilias", which means thousands, not murias, though murias is used elsewhere. Here's a good juxtaposition of the two words I found while looking that up:

          Scripture Verse: Revelation 5

          Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand [murias] times ten thousand, and thousands [chilias] of thousands;

          © Copyright Original Source



          That settles it. This is an even more direct allusion to the Daniel passage in Revelation itself where the same "murias murias" clearly means ten thousand times ten thousand.

          And the purpose of the four angels being released does not need to be speculated about. The verse itself states it was "to kill a third of mankind." How you get the "Zadok high priesthood" from that involves a very clear trail of absurd leaps in reasoning. Don't presume to speak for God.

          The problem with Israel at that time was that they were refusing to acknowledge that God had set aside His formerly-approved Zadok family of the high priesthood (set up after the post-exilic return in Ezekiel 44:15-16) in favor of Christ's superior high priesthood based on the order of Melchizedek. To stubbornly cling to the former Zadok high priesthood was to make an idol of it after Jesus's anointing as our high priest had changed the law in this respect. God gave Israel a space to repent, but the majority did not. So, to make it very obvious that God had forever laid that former Zadok order of the high priesthood aside, He had to make a highly-visible physical demonstration to the Jews of those high priesthood members losing their lives. These two, Ananus and Joshua, were called "two witnesses", not because they were witnesses of Jesus's gospel, but because the high priesthood role was ever supposed to have served as God's witness to the people. They alone in the OT were to "stand before the Lord", to minister, and to keep His charge. And typically, there were supposed to be two high priests, with one "sagan" serving as a back-up, in case the other became ritually unclean in some way, and unable to fulfill his duties on the Day of Atonement. In addition, the number of TWO of them also aligned with God's requirement that "in the mouth of two witnesses let every word be established."
          There is so much wrong with this paragraph:

          1. The post-exilic return involves all of the tribes as made most abundantly clear in Ezekiel 37 and Revelation 7, not the three tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi.
          2. The two witnesses are called "two witnesses of Me" in the Greek, with the "Me" obviously being Christ. They witness of Him.
          3. The two witnesses have the power to do many things these two Jewish priests did not do, including destroy their enemies by fire.
          4. The two witnesses are killed by the beast, not "Idumeans".

          You may think, Darfius, that this sixth trumpet judgment was to take place on a global scale, but that's not the setting where we see this taking place. It was in JERUSALEM, "where our Lord was crucified" (Rev. 11:8) that provided the location for the death of these two witnesses, (Ananus and Joshua, the former high priests). Anytime that Revelation uses the term "the EARTH", (tes ges), typically in scripture this refers to "the LAND" - of Israel. When it intends to show a global event, typically scripture uses the word "oikoumene", meaning the entire habitable world. And there ARE references in Revelation that use this term also.
          You have not yet shown why Revelation 9 and Revelation 11 have anything to do with each other.

          Scripture Verse: Revelation 9

          20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

          © Copyright Original Source



          What is meant by "the rest of mankind" if this is not a global event? Have you not just finished explaining how the Jews were defending a Zadokite run Temple system? What is this talk of worshipping demons and idols?

          Just not in Revelation 9. What you think are "supernatural agents" (the "locusts") in Revelation 9 aren't that at all. Those "crowns like gold" and "hair like women" is descriptive of the first-century helmets worn by Roman soldiers, trimmed with a narrow gold forehead band, and trailing horsehair from a "crista" mounted on top. Want a link to a pic? We have unearthed samples of these very same helmets found in rubbish pits in Colchester England from the AD 60 Roman war with Queen Boudicca. Roman soldiers wearing this very same style of helmet were tormenting the Judean citizens for five literal months (May - September of AD 66) under the evil encouragement of the Judean procurator, Gessius Florus. He was was trying to goad the Jews into rebellion by his tormenting actions against the people in Israel, and he totally succeeded. Gessius Florus was the "destroyer" (the meaning of the names Abaddon and Apollyon) who is described in Revelation 9:11 - the leader of those Roman soldiers termed "locusts" who were tormenting those living in Israel at the time. Josephus tells the whole story of Gessius Florus' evil motives and torments inflicted upon the people he was supposed to be governing in Wars 2.14-16.
          Why is Florus depictied as coming up out of the Abyss? Can you explain what that really means for me and the vast majority of the rest of humanity in the 2,000 years since Revelation who did not have access to Josephus' "Wars of the Jews"?

          You asked when John was supposed to have authored Revelation. It is proved, not by MY account, but by scripture's own internal evidence, that it was written in a narrow window of time somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60, just before the predicted Laodicean earthquake that decimated that city. If you need a link to a comment I made on another site that lists about a dozen scriptures that narrow down this date, I can supply that if you wish.
          It makes no difference to the futurist approach whether John wrote Revelation pre or post 70 AD, I was just wondering who you supposed his intended audience to be and why he needed so many chapters in Revelation to describe a couple of events local to Jerusalem.

          The sixth angel which was told to "loose" the 4 messengers did so by God supernaturally providing the occasion of the unusual storm and earthquake that night. This gave enough covering noise that the Zealots were enabled to elude Ananus's guards and to saw the bars of the gates open to admit the Idumean army of 20,000 waiting outside Jerusalem.
          This is the loosest interpretation of loose that I have ever seen, pun intended.

          It is not my intention to supply historical proofs of these past fulfilled events merely to "soothe the fears" of a coming judgment. I very much believe that our present and very near future will bring a chaotic close to a 6th millennium age, leading to the last 7th millennium period of fallen man's history on this planet. I call this rapidly approaching transition "God's Y2K". But that's a discussion for another post.
          I am fine with supposing that God provided a partial "near" fulfillment of endtime prophecy using Jerusalem and the Jews as a forewarning of what would happen on a global scale in the end days. Near and far double fulfillments are all throughout Scripture, i.e., Immanuel, David having a "son" who would build God's temple (Solomon and Jesus), return from exile (some prophecies of which were written after the return from Babylon at the end of 70 years). But preterism is absurd, contradictory and dangerous. I am glad to hear you are aware of the coming chaos, however. I'd be interested in seeing that "discussion for another post".

          Comment


          • Evening again Darfius,

            You are a rare soul if you have the patience to sift through my multiplied paragraphs and offer a point-by-point critique. Sorry, it's a weakness of mine - not being able to condense thoughts into something more succinct.

            Let me cover the easiest point of your objections first: that Revelation chapter 9 and Revelation chapter 11 are not related. Simply put, Revelation 11:14 is the culmination of the sixth trumpet, which started all the way back in Revelation 9:13. The single verse Revelation 9:12 introduces the 'second woe" out of a group of the final "three woes" (which three are the same as the 5th trumpet, 6th trumpet, and 7th trumpet). It says, "One woe is past" (the 5th trumpet that had just sounded), "and behold, there come two woes more hereafter" (which would be the 6th trumpet and 7th trumpet coming up). "And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice..." etc. So, after Revelation 9:12 we follow the events of this sixth trumpet (the "second woe") on past Revelation 9:13, and all the way until we are told about the 7th trumpet sounding (the "third woe" finally being sounded), which is in Revelation 11:14-15. It says, "The second woe is past; and behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded;..." etc..

            This means that any prophetic material covered between Revelation 9:13 and Revelation 11:14 involves the "loosing" of the 4 messengers and their army of 20,000, as well as the details surrounding the death of the two witnesses along with the 7,000 slain, and the earthquake, etc., that would all take place under the sixth trumpet (the "second woe"). Do you remember Jesus predicting a "BEGINNING of sorrows", even BEFORE the Great Tribulation would start? That shows us a definite escalation of events that would abruptly crank up at a certain point, which would then kick the Great Tribulation into high gear. This is why the angel in Revelation 8:13 at the end of the chapter abruptly pronounced with a loud voice, "WOE, WOE, WOE, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!" This shows a clear transition from the former four trumpet judgments (which were milder by comparison as being the introductory "BEGINNING of sorrows" Jesus spoke of). Those four comparatively milder preceding trumpets were then followed by the "GREAT Tribulation", which encompassed the final three trumpets that were considerably more intense in the carnage they created.

            If you have studied first-century events, this is exactly what happened chronologically. The Zealot cause of insurrection against Rome was simmering on the back burner, even before Jesus' ministry started, just waiting for an opportunity to break out. As the "BEGINNING of sorrows", wars and rumors of wars then cranked up (for which we have records). Earthquakes in divers places with increased seismic activity in those decades were recorded for us also. Among other incidents, Vesuvius even erupted violently in AD 63, producing a tsunami that sank some 300 ships in the Roman Ostia harbor, ruining the entire year's grain supply for Rome (part of "the sea and the waves roaring" Jesus predicted). Seneca wrote a book "Concerning Earthquakes" at that time which mentioned this. Plagues, and famines, such as the world-wide famine in Claudius' day that Agabus predicted in Acts 11:28, were also recorded. Nation against nation, such as the nation of Samaria versus the Jews in AD 52, Rome versus the Parthians, and the AD 60 war with Queen Boudicca in Britain, etc., etc.. Christ told His disciples that ALL that complete list of sorrows from Luke 21:8 through 28, including all the Great Tribulation events just prior to His return, were ALL "ABOUT TO COME TO PASS" for the disciples in that generation (Luke 21:36). Bar none.

            Gessius Florus and the "locust" Roman troops under his command (prophesied in Revelation 9:3-11) provided the final five-months of intolerable torment for the Jewish citizens which finally goaded them into a full-scale revolt in the land of Israel. That breaking point came in the autumn of AD 66, when Eleazar, governor of the Temple, officially made the break with Roman governance by abandoning the agreed-upon daily sacrifice for Rome and the emperor, followed by the Zealot attack on the Roman garrison at the Fortress of Antonia and the Roman troops at Masada. Rev. 12:12 proves that Satan and his demons were already "loosed" on the earth for that short time back then. They were operating at full throttle behind the seething antagonism that arose between all these factions, whipping them all into a boiling froth that finally spilled over into the Jewish-Roman war. After all, Christ had already predicted that His generation would be oppressed by a 7-fold increase of demonic activity during its "last state". This would be infinitely worse than its "first state" when He and the disciples had been casting out demons in virtually every town He visited during His ministry (Matt. 12:43-45).

            To "come up out of the abyss" (abysson) is to be understood - NOT as a particular LOCATION per se, but as a CONDITION. Or to be specific, a NON-FUNCTIONAL CONDITION. It is this "abyss" condition that Christ Himself emerged from at His resurrection. In Romans 10:7, Christ descended to the "abyss" in death (for 3 days and 3 nights). Christ's dead body while in the sepulcher was definitely in a non-functioning condition. This "abyss" is depicted as being "bottomless" to illustrate its capacity to hold any number of entities in the same inoperative condition at the same time. We do not need the aid of Josephus to understand this concept - just Romans 10:7. Gessius Florus, as Nero's newly-appointed governor of Judea who began to torment the citizens of Judea, could be said to "come up out of the abyss" by launching his oppressive regime against the Jews. Before then, he did not have license or opportunity to do so. It was in May of AD 66 when the Jews asked the visiting Roman commander, Cestius Gallus (whom Nero had just directed to do a census at Jerusalem during the Passover), to remove Gessius Florus from office, because even then he was acting abominably towards them. Florus only laughed at them, and as soon as Cestius Gallus ended his visit to Jerusalem, Florus unleashed his full fury for those next five months on the Jews who had complained against him. His goal was to get the Jews so tormented that they would declare war on Rome, so that his own wicked enterprises would be overlooked by Rome, in comparison to the greater threat of the Jewish revolt.

            You asked "who were the 'rest of men which were not killed by these plagues', if this is not a global event?" They are called the "rest of men" because this is referring to the other remaining 2/3 of the men (in Jerusalem) who were the other two factions left in power after Ananus's entire moderate party (of 7,000) was murdered during the night of the earthquake. Ananus and Joshua as leaders of the moderate party supporting the priesthood represented 1/3 of the factions present in Jerusalem at that time (the 1/3 part of men in the city). Once Ananus and Joshua (the two witnesses) and their 1 of the 3 existing factions in Jerusalem were killed, that left the "rest of men" - the other 2 of the 3 factions - to hold unrestrained power over Jerusalem's inhabitants. Without the restraint of Ananus's moderate party, this freed them to become absolutely tyrannical. They proceeded to set up their own mockery of the high priesthood by casting lots to elect Phannias - who had no idea what he was doing. Outright murder of the wealthiest citizens and theft of their possessions followed. It was a set of demon-possessed gangs that held sway in Jerusalem from then on, and they did not repent of their vile activities, fulfilling Revelation 9:20-21.

            The worship of "idols" going on in Jerusalem in AD 70 was mentioned all the way back in Zechariah 13:2, in the prophecy foretelling the nation of Israel's "siege both against Judah and Jerusalem". "IN THAT DAY", God, said, He "will cut off the names of the IDOLS out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered..." To give homage to any priesthood system or any so-called "Messiah" wannabe except for Jesus Christ and His New Covenant high priesthood - this amounted to idolatry in Jerusalem. If the Jews were going to insist on still clinging to the old elements which were dead and decaying, God had to wrench that system out of their grasp by having its representative members die off. That is the symbolism behind the particular families mentioned that would be mourning in Jerusalem in Zechariah 13:11-14 - the mourning families of the house of David, and Nathan, and Levi, and Shimei. No more genealogical royal house, or Levitical priesthood, or family that used to transport all the curtains that made the walls of the physical Tabernacle of Witness. All of these formerly-ordained things had since become idols competing with Jesus Christ, and consequently were being set aside as obsolete.

            A few thoughts on the "two myriads of myriads" number which you may not have thought of. Lets' presume for the sake of argument that you are correct in this being 200 MILLION army members. Once loosed, this army's attack would succeed in killing that 1/3 of men. This was the total of 7,000 men slain in Jerusalem during the occasion of the earthquake that same hour when the two witnesses were also murdered. A total of 7,0002 persons altogether. Now, according to the common view of Revelation 9:16 that usually interprets this as an army of 200 MILLION, it seems quite strange that it would take 200 MILLION horsemen to manage the killing of 7,002 individuals. Do the math. If I figured it correctly, that means it would require 28,563 horsemen to kill just ONE PERSON in the city of Jerusalem. That's an improbably ratio, and doesn't say very much about the superior battle skills of the proposed number of 200 MILLION that was supposed to be so overpowering in Revelation 9:17-19. If this number is actually 20,000 instead, as I have proposed for the "two myriads of myriads", the ratio of combatants is reduced to an approximate 3 to 1 ratio - a bit more realistic.

            That army of 20,000 Idumean horsemen led by their 4 commanders was only fulfilling the intentions of the Scarlet Beast that was then operating in Jerusalem. John of Gischala and the other Zealot factions as part of that Scarlet Beast were the real cause of the Idumean attack in Jerusalem. THEY were part of the entity that had deliberately arranged to get rid of Ananus's moderate party members which had tormented them by holding them in check until the two witnesses and their moderate party were all murdered. The Idumeans were only the convenient tool that was used to accomplish the Scarlet Beast's designs.

            Waaaay too long a post comment!! Sorry about that, Darfius. I can get into the description of the two witnesses' powers in another comment later. And they DO match up with the role of a high priest; particularly what was going on during those years from AD 66-70.

            Comment


            • Hello, 3 Resurrections,

              I think it would be counterproductive to engage in an exchange of point by point rebuttals now that our main positions have been established. I will take issue with one thing you argued, however:

              A few thoughts on the "two myriads of myriads" number which you may not have thought of. Lets' presume for the sake of argument that you are correct in this being 200 MILLION army members. Once loosed, this army's attack would succeed in killing that 1/3 of men. This was the total of 7,000 men slain in Jerusalem during the occasion of the earthquake that same hour when the two witnesses were also murdered. A total of 7,0002 persons altogether. Now, according to the common view of Revelation 9:16 that usually interprets this as an army of 200 MILLION, it seems quite strange that it would take 200 MILLION horsemen to manage the killing of 7,002 individuals. Do the math. If I figured it correctly, that means it would require 28,563 horsemen to kill just ONE PERSON in the city of Jerusalem. That's an improbably ratio, and doesn't say very much about the superior battle skills of the proposed number of 200 MILLION that was supposed to be so overpowering in Revelation 9:17-19. If this number is actually 20,000 instead, as I have proposed for the "two myriads of myriads", the ratio of combatants is reduced to an approximate 3 to 1 ratio - a bit more realistic.
              This is textbook eisegesis. Rather than allow the text to inform your position, you are ignoring the plain meaning of the text to force your theory onto it. The number is 200 million because John is describing an endtime global event

              That being said, you did not address my contention that God always planned for a double fulfillment of His endtime prophecies. The destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews was indeed an apocalyptic event for them, so it is fitting to expect that the Lord tried to prepare them for it. But the Jews were not the sum total of God's people and Paul especially makes a point to stress that the same thing that befell the Jews could befall Christians ("Gentiles") if they made the same mistakes Jews did. The modern parallel to Jews thinking they were "saved" because of their descent from Abraham is the modern "Christian" notion that they are saved "by the blood of Jesus" with no obedience (faith) required on their parts. That is why the world is currently under the control of the wicked one and his servants rather than having been conquered for Christ and why God has always intended a global judgment to destroy the kingdoms of this world and replace them with His kingdom physically as well as spiritually.

              Comment


              • Hi again Darfius,

                Our current state of corrupt world affairs is not due to any current existence of "the Wicked One", whom God predicted in several prophecies that He would have "SLAIN" back in AD 70. Rather, the human "CHILDREN of the devil" (as Christ once termed the Pharisees back then), ever since Satan and his angels were all destroyed in the AD 70 Lake of Fire in Jerusalem, have since then been continuing to carry out the same "lusts of their Father" in imitation of Satan's former actions. Satan does not need to exist for the initial effects of his "murder" of mankind from the beginning to affect mankind's history all the way to its conclusion at the last, final judgment and 3rd resurrection event. My comments tend to be too lengthy as it is, which is why I did not already address your position of a certain kind of "double fulfillment". I'm not dodging you, Darfius - just trying to keep from wandering all over the map in our discussion and consequently wearying any of the readers.

                The subject of the "two myriads of myriads" is included in the revealed prophetic material about the near future in Revelation that was THEN "AT HAND" or "presently near" in John's days (as John's introduction in Rev. 1:3 and his conclusion in Rev. 22:10 clearly describe). It was the "end-time" of that particular AGE back then - not the "end-time" of ALL of human history on this planet that was the subject of those revealed prophecies. I Peter 4:7 once said that "the END of all things is AT HAND" or "presently near" during the time that Peter wrote those words (around AD 65). Since you and I are still here and history has continued since Peter wrote those words that applied to HIS generation, that denotes an "END" of some kind that was present back THEN that did NOT include the eventual end of human history.

                Not sure why you are categorizing my interpretation of the "two myriads of myriads" as being "textbook eisegesis". I'm using the actual context itself to determine just WHO that 1/3 of men killed actually was. And it CANNOT be a GLOBAL 1/3 of men slain by these "two myriads of myriads" because of the COMPLETE CONTEXT covered during this sixth trumpet judgment (from Revelation 9:12 through Revelation 11:14). This ENTIRE CONTEXT regarding the sixth trumpet judgment from Rev. 9:12 through Rev. 11: 14 determines that the "1/3 part of men" slain by them would amount to a total of 7,002 that were to be slain IN JERUSALEM, "where also our Lord was crucified". It was a LOCAL earthquake in the city of Jerusalem that was to take place, and a LOCAL slaying of 7,002 in the city, (including those two witnesses), by the hands of the "two myriads of myriads" and the four messengers that led them. It was going to be those that "dwelled on the earth" (tes ges - the land of Israel - NOT the entire habitable world - oikoumene) that would rejoice at the death of the two witnesses who had tormented them.

                While times since then have had and will continue to have regular periods of tribulation for the believers, there are certain elements of prophecy that simply CANNOT be repeated with a double fulfillment. One example is the un-repeatable eradication of the Satanic realm in AD 70, which has rid humanity of AT LEAST that one great "roaring lion" that the first-century believers had to deal with. That leaves the human "children of the devil" that are still contending with believers today, along with any remaining deception and wickedness lurking in our own hearts that we are to do battle with.

                If you would like me to address this kind of future fulfillment of prophecy, (which an ordinary Full-Preterist would vehemently deny), I will enter that as a separate topic on this forum, say, with perhaps the title "How many ages are there?"

                Comment


                • Hello again, 3 Resurrections, I hope you are well.

                  Please don't take offense to this, but it is delusional to suggest that the devil is not merely bound as most preterists claim but has already been cast into the lake of fire (doesn't that come at the end of the 1,000 years?) The 20th century alone saw more mass murder than the ancients could have conceived of and the Lord Jesus said that the time of the end would be more terrible than any time in history (precluding a first century fulfillment). Indeed, the seven year second world war was a type of the future tribulation and Hitler an obvious type of the Antichrist.

                  Speaking of context:

                  Scripture Verse: Revelation 11

                  11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

                  13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  Where in Josephus did he mention the resurrection of the two "moderate Jewish priests" before the eyes of those who killed them? Predictably, you will have to strain the meaning of the text beyond all semblance of what it actually says to explain that failed fulfillment away.

                  And in what way did the survivors "give glory to God?" Have you not argued that only acceptance of Christ constituted true worship and therefore glory to God? The Jews did not convert to Christians en masse in or around 70 AD. Cue more straining.

                  Let's also give some context to Peter's idea of "soon":

                  Scripture Verse: 2 Peter 3

                  3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

                  8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

                  10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

                  11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

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                  Odd for Peter to say "in the last days" rather than "in these last days" if he meant his time period. Also odd for him to immediately explain how even thousands of years to God are "as a day" if he didn't mean to imply that the "coming" (with word links) of the Lord--which corresponded with judgment--would take thousands of years.

                  And the judgment he intends is also obviously global, since he makes a direct comparison with the global flood and clarifies that "heaven and earth" will be destroyed.

                  Scripture Verse: Hebrews 4

                  . 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

                  6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

                  “Today, if you hear his voice,
                  do not harden your hearts.”

                  8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

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                  There have been 6,000 years (six "days") since Adam. The Millennium will be the final 1,000 years (seventh "day") and the Sabbath rest where God (Christ) will rest from His work.

                  Scripture Verse: John 5

                  16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  If you would like me to address this kind of future fulfillment of prophecy, (which an ordinary Full-Preterist would vehemently deny), I will enter that as a separate topic on this forum, say, with perhaps the title "How many ages are there?"
                  Yes, please.


                  Comment


                  • Evening Darfius,

                    Doing well, thank you. Just mowed the yard - always feels good to do that for the first time of the year. And I should be finishing up a custom drapery work order this evening, but it's always more enjoyable to exchange eschatology thoughts online with others instead.

                    No offense taken at objections. And you, of course, are quite correct that Satan was to be cast into the Lake of Fire AFTER the (to me, LITERAL) 1,000-years mentioned in Revelation 20. It's very, very easy to determine from Revelation just when the millennium ENDED. The Revelation 20 millennium was ALREADY OVER by the time John was writing Revelation. We know this by comparing Revelation 12:12 with Revelation 20:3 and 7. As you know, Satan was to be "loosed" after being bound for those thousand years, and would THEN have only a "little season" to operate before he was to be cast into that Lake of Fire. Revelation 12:12 announced a warning to John's readers that Satan had ALREADY BEEN LOOSED for that "SHORT TIME". This necessarily means that the millennium's ENDING must have already happened BEFORE John was putting pen to parchment, because the millennium's expiration was to precede that "LITTLE SEASON" or "SHORT TIME" of Satan's being loosed.

                    John's Rev. 12:12 warning to those first century readers: "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil *IS* COME DOWN UNTO YOU" (already had been loosed by being cast down to the earth out of heaven) "having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but A SHORT TIME". That's the same time period as the "LITTLE SEASON" Satan was to be loosed, which would begin exactly when the millennium had just expired. Just how long is a "little season" for Satan to be loosed? Well, we know that a "long season" is quantified in scripture as being the 40 years of wandering in the wilderness, as Joshua testified in Joshua 24:7, "...and ye dwelt in the wilderness a LONG SEASON." So, it seems that a "LITTLE season" would necessarily need to last a shorter time span than a "LONG season" of 40 years, yes? That means that it would have been less than 40 years from the time John was writing Revelation when Satan would be thrown in the Lake of Fire. Most Preterists have this millennium misplaced on the calendar, as well as miscalculated in its duration. And it's not that difficult, really, to find the scriptures that place those LITERAL 1,000 years on the calendar. But maybe a subject for another post.

                    Darfius, you are among the majority of those who read Matthew 24:21's description of the "Great Tribulation" and think that it is comparing a LEVEL of tribulation without equal before or after. To you and most everybody else, you are anticipating horrors of a level of magnitude that they will be unprecedented and unequalled in all of human history. That's not quite the words Jesus used to describe this period. He said that "then shall be great tribulation, SUCH AS was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." This "SUCH AS" term is comparing an unprecedented and never-to-be-duplicated TYPE or NATURE of a tribulation experience - NOT necessarily its quantity or measure in the sheer amount of blood shed and level of the war's ferocity.

                    Jesus already told us in Matthew 12:43-45 what that NATURE and TYPE of the Great Tribulation was going to be, and it wasn't exactly a supreme, ultimate level of wars and famines, plagues etc. that He meant. He was talking about the complete, 7-fold SATANIC AND DEMONIC POSSESSION of THAT wicked, first-century generation in its LAST STATE, as compared to its FIRST STATE when He was among them casting out unclean spirits. No other nation on earth HAS ever or WILL ever again experience what it is like to have the ENTIRE demonic realm imprisoned in a single city for several years. Revelation 18:2 said that "EVERY unclean spirit" was going to be literally "imprisoned" in that city called "Babylon the Great" / "that great city" / "the city where our Lord was crucified" / aka Jerusalem. That city Jerusalem in its "last state" became the "habitation of devils" - literally. When Jerusalem's leaders had imprisoned within its walls men who were possessed with every devil or unclean spirit that had ever come into being, at the same time, that also imprisoned within Jerusalem all the unclean spirits themselves who were possessing those people.

                    Thankfully, Christ predicted that any type of great tribulation "SUCH AS" the type that this one was going to be, (which was to be "IMMEDIATELY" followed by His return), would not ever occur again over the span of history FOLLOWING that Great Tribulation and His return; "...no, nor ever SHALL BE". None would ever be like that tribulation, since the entire Satanic realm would be destroyed and would no longer be around to create this same type of mayhem ever again. This statement saying "No, nor ever SHALL BE" in the future clearly shows us that ordinary periods of tribulation for the saints would occur in the following ages of history AFTER Christ's return. That tells me that Christ planned, not only a second coming return, but a third return also.

                    You asked about the Revelation 11 account of the two witnesses being resurrected, and their enemies seeing them. It makes no difference if Josephus knew of this and recorded it or not. Scripture says that the "REMNANT" seeing all this sixth trumpet's events happening "gave glory to God". Certainly a righteous response, as you have noted, Darfius. But it was not a response that would come from the unrepentant Jews in the city at that time, since Revelation 9:21 said that they did NOT repent, even after those 1/3 of men were slain (the 7,002 who died under the Idumean attack in Jerusalem). This "REMNANT" is very specific. It is the same "REMNANT" of the woman's seed that Satan in "great wrath" had been making war against (Rev. 12:17), ever since the day Stephen was martyred. I believe this "REMNANT" was the Matthew 27 "First-fruits" resurrected saints that remained on earth and were being used as "laborers in the harvest" to build up the early church in those days. They were Revelation 12's 144,000 "First-fruits" that were raised along with "Christ the First-fruits" in the "First resurrection".

                    This "REMNANT" Satan was making war against was described as "keeping the commandments of God and having the testimony of Jesus Christ." Some of this righteous "REMNANT" were the same as the "camp of the saints" in Rev. 20:9 who were actually going to be INSIDE Jerusalem as it was being surrounded by Gog coming against Jerusalem in AD 69 in the person of the Zealot leader Simon Bar Giora and his huge army. These Matthew 27 saints who had been raised to life again in the "First resurrection" along with Christ could not be hurt by the "second death" (Rev. 20:6) of Jerusalem being brought to total destruction for the second time since its first death under the Babylonians.

                    A resurrected saint is impervious to harm, whether it be of a physical or a demonic nature. I believe that righteous "REMNANT" of the Matthew 27 resurrected saints were some of the "holy messengers" (or "angels" of Rev. 14:10) who were actually "IN THE PRESENCE" of those being tormented in Jerusalem's Lake of Fire conditions as it was being brought to destruction. Since they were actually in the very presence of those being tormented, they were the righteous "REMNANT" who alone gave glory to God when they saw those events of Revelation 9 through11 take place. God was exercising mercy to the city's inhabitants by using these evangelistic "messengers" as a chance for Jerusalem's inhabitants to repent, all the way up to the very last moment before He bodily returned on the Mount of Olives in AD 70 - and brought those "living and remaining" Matthew 27 resurrected saints with Him back to heaven along with all the rest of the newly-resurrected saints.

                    Though you may dismiss most or even all of the above, Darfius, you and I are at least in agreement that almost 6,000 years of history has elapsed since Adam. The transition to the next 7th millennium of human history will come soon in AD 2033, ("God's Y2K" as I call it) because the 4th (Rev.20) millennium already ended in AD 33 at Christ' ascension after the "First resurrection". It's very simple. The Rev. 20 millennium ENDED when Christ ASCENDED and the Devil DESCENDED. I'll have to put that in my signature line someday...
                    Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 03-19-2021, 10:02 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                      Scripture Verse: Revelation 9

                      13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Uhhh, why are angels bound at the Euphrates and when were they released to kill a third of mankind? Welcome to another edition of "Questions preterists have never cared enough about God or the truth or anyone to ask, let alone answer."

                      Scripture Verse: 2 Peter 2

                      4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, [Tartarus] putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      These angels must have done something very bad to be "put in chains" and "imprisoned in darkness". We'll get to what they did in a minute, but let's address why Peter used a specifically Greek concept to describe their "special place in hell". In Greek mythology, there were a lot of coups amongst the gods. Chronos led his brother and sister Titans [his generation of the gods] to rebel successfully against their father Uranus to seize power. After ruling during a "golden age", Cronos' own kids, led by Zeus, got the same idea and warred against the Titans, defeating them and casting them into dark imprisonment in Tartarus, described specifically as a place "where light could not enter." Sound like "chains of darkness" to anyone else? Peter, like the other prophets who wrote Scripture, did not select his words at random, but as he was led to by the Spirit of Christ. Also note that he mentions Noah's flood right after this. That's important.
                      Interesting as the reference to the myth of the imprisonment of the Titans, and of Kronos, is; a more likely source for, Peter's remarks about the imprisonment of the angels, than Greek mythology, is 1 Enoch. The book is quoted by Jude, and has a lot to say about the Son of Man; so the Gospel references to the Son of Man may be as indebted to 1 Enoch as to Daniel 7.

                      It seems better, as a matter of method, to explain the ideas of the Apostles by Jewish sources, when possible, rather than by pagan sources - unless, of course, as in Acts 17.28, the use of a pagan source is more probable than any other.
                      Scripture Verse: 1 Peter 3

                      18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Again Peter mentions "imprisoned spirits" in the context of the time of Noah's flood (the "days of Noah"). These are obviously the same imprisoned angels in Tartarus. He even confirms this is who he means by specifically mentioning the "angels, authorities and powers" in submission to Christ--undoubtedly the subject of His proclamation to them. And Peter mentions their "disobedience", which brings us back to why they were imprisoned in the first place.

                      Scripture Verse: Jude

                      6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling— these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Jude mentions these same rebellious (disobedient) angels who are "kept in darkness and chains" (Tartarus).
                      All the above passage can likely be accounted for as reminiscences of 1 Enoch.
                      And he also gives insight into the exact nature of their rebellion and disobedience. They abandoned their "proper dwelling", "authority" (another intentional word linkage to Peter) and engaged in sexual immorality and perversion in the same vein as those in Sodom and Gomorrah. Now the particular sexual sins of Sodom can be found in Scripture:
                      The Biblical passages above quoted, do not associate the angels with Sodom, though.

                      1 Enoch shows the angels sinning, not by sodomy, but - as Genesis 6.1-4 does - by taking human wives, and fathering children by them. And, in 1 Enoch itself, by introducing various arts and sciences, and basically by acting as "culture-founders; a notion also present in Genesis 4.17-25.
                      Scripture Verse: Genesis 19

                      The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”

                      “No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”

                      3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      As for the sin of Sodom, what it was depends, in part, on who or what the "angels" were.
                      The word *malachim* is used of messengers - whether human, or superhuman. There are therefore several possibilities - the sin described in Genesis 19.1-29 may have been:

                      an attempted act of same-sex coitus; or
                      an attempted act of gang-rape; or
                      an attack upon heavenly beings who are messengers of God; or
                      an attack upon purely human messengers.

                      In antiquity, messengers were inviolable - so diplomats, who continue their function, are inviolable today. To attack them, amounted to an assault upon the sender in whose name they spoke. This idea lurks behind Luke 10.16.

                      According to Gen. 19.4: "Before they had gone to bed, all the men of the city of Sodom, both young and old, surrounded the house."

                      Whereas according to Gen. 14:

                      "17After Abram returned from defeating Chedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley).
                      18Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine—since he was priest of God Most Highf —
                      19and he blessed Abram and said:

                      “Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
                      Creator of heaven and earth,
                      20and blessed be God Most High,
                      who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”

                      Then Abram gave Melchizedek a tenth of everything.

                      21The king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give me the people, but take the goods for yourself.”
                      22But Abram replied to the king of Sodom, “I have raised my hand to the LORD God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, 23that I will not accept even a thread, or a strap of a sandal, or anything that belongs to you, lest you should say, ‘I have made Abram rich.’ 24I will accept nothing but what my men have eaten and the share for the men who went with me—Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre. They may take their portion.”"

                      It seems very implausible, that if "all the men of the city of Sodom" were homosexuals, Abram would be in alliance with their king. If Sodom had a bad reputation for other sins, that fits more readily with the Genesis passages about Sodom.

                      Judges 19 describes a gang-rape, and the two last chapters of Judges show the abhorrence in which that crime was held. It almost led to the destruction of a complete tribe, Benjamin: https://biblehub.com/bsb/judges/19.htm

                      There are many references to Sodom, Gomorrah, and to "the cities of the plain" in both Testaments. There is a remarkable lack of reference to same-sex activity - presumably the two passages in the Holiness Code in Leviticus, 18.22 & 2013; and presumably also Romans 1.18-32; 1 Cor. 6.9-10, are references to it.
                      None of these Biblical passages links Sodom to same-sex activity. So ISTM, that to identify the sin of Gen.19.1-29 as same-sex activity, is to go beyond what Scripture says.

                      When Isaiah rebukes the "rulers of Sodom", he is addressing the rulers of Jerusalem. He spends most of Isaiah 1 tearing into them, for, in effect, separating liturgical worship from the righteous behaviour that ought to accompany it. Of same-sex activity, or of anything like it, there is no hint. Worse still, he accuses the "rulers of Sodom" of many acts of unrighteousness - but not of that one.
                      https://biblehub.com/bsb/isaiah/1.htm

                      Ezekiel 16, almost 150 years later, rebukes the pride, ingratitude to God, and infidelity to God of Jerusalem at even greater length than Isaiah, and says this:

                      45You are the daughter of your mother, who despised her husband and children. You are the sister of your sisters, who despised their husbands and children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite. 46Your older sister was Samaria, who lived with her daughters to your north; and your younger sister was Sodom, who lived with her daughters to your south.
                      47And you not only walked in their ways and practiced their abominations, but soon you were more depraved than they were.
                      48As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did as you and your daughters have done.
                      49Now this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed, and complacent; they did not help the poor and needy.
                      50Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them, as you have seen.
                      51Furthermore, Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have multiplied your abominations beyond theirs, and all the abominations you have committed have made your sisters appear righteous.
                      52So now you must bear your disgrace, since you have brought justification for your sisters. For they appear more righteous than you, because your sins were more vile than theirs. So you too must bear your shame and disgrace, since you have made your sisters appear righteous.
                      53But I will restore Sodom and her daughters from captivity, as well as Samaria and her daughters. And I will restore you along with them.
                      54So you will bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you did to comfort them.
                      55And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state. You and your daughters will also return to your former state. 56Did you not treat your sister Sodom as an object of scorn in the day of your pride, 57before your wickedness was uncovered? Even so, you are now scorned by the daughters of Edom and all those around her, and by the daughters of the Philistines—all those around you who despise you. 58You will bear the consequences of your lewdness and your abominations, declares the LORD.

                      https://biblehub.com/bsb/ezekiel/16.htm

                      In Ezekiel 16, Jerusalem is not Sodom - she is worse than Sodom. And again, the passage mentions Jerusalem's sins, in 16.48-49; and same-sex offences are not among them.

                      There is an OT example of an insult to messengers leading to war, in 2 Samuel 10:

                      1Some time later, the king of the Ammonites died and was succeeded by his son Hanun.
                      2And David said, “I will show kindness to Hanun son of Nahash, just as his father showed kindness to me.” So David sent some of his servants to console Hanun concerning his father. But when they arrived in the land of the Ammonites, 3the princes of the Ammonites said to Hanun their lord, “Just because David has sent you comforters, do you really believe he is showing respect for your father? Has not David instead sent his servants to explore the city, spy it out, and overthrow it?”
                      4So Hanun took David’s servants, shaved off half of each man’s beard, cut off their garments at the hips, and sent them away.
                      5When this was reported to David, he sent messengers to meet the men, since they had been thoroughly humiliated. The king told them, “Stay in Jericho until your beards have grown back, and then return.”
                      6When the Ammonites realized that they had become a stench to David, they hired twenty thousand Aramean foot soldiers from Beth-rehob and Zoba, as well as a thousand men from the king of Maacah and twelve thousand men from Tob.
                      7On hearing this, David sent Joab and the entire army of mighty men. 8The Ammonites marched out and arrayed themselves for battle at the entrance of the city gate, while the Arameans of Zobah and Rehob and the men of Tob and Maacah were by themselves in the open country.

                      https://biblehub.com/bsb/2_samuel/10.htm

                      Genesis 19 is a very interesting chapter, because:

                      The account of the sin of the Sodomites, and of their destruction, reads like a version of the Flood story - with some striking differences:

                      Instead of the "sons of god/gods/God" "going in to the daughters of men", the Sodomites try to "go in to" the *malachim* (if understood as heavenly beings).

                      The heavenly beings succeed, and they beget offspring, the Nephilim. The Sodomites are blinded, and fail in their intention.

                      Instead of the means of judgement being the waters flooding the Earth, fire and brimstone rain down from Heaven.

                      Instead of Noah and his three sons surviving the Flood, Lot and his two daughters survive the fiery overthrow of Sodom.

                      Like Noah after the Flood, Lot becomes drunken. Both stories end with an anecdote about an enemy of Israel. In Lot's case, his daughters make him the ancestor of Moab & Ammon - and the king of Ammon is the offender in 2 Samuel 10, who dishonours the messengers of David.

                      The Nephilim in Genesis 6.1-4 are "the wrong kind of" children - as are Moab and Ammon. The action of the Sodomites is incapable of resulting in offspring.

                      Those three stories are distortions, in different ways, of the blessing of human fertility in Genesis 1.26-28. By contrast, the story in Genesis 18 of Abraham and his three heavenly visitors, includes (not for the first time) the promise, & assurance, of the birth of a son. Genesis 18 shows the virtues being practiced which are trodden underfoot in chapter 19.
                      Now obviously having sex with other men was not a foreign concept to the men of Sodom, but also obvious is that they did not rape every man who passed through the city. We know that Lot never had sex with them, though he lived amongst them:

                      Scripture Verse: 2 Peter 2

                      7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      So it was not mere homosexual lust that drove them to attempt to rape these angels. It was the fact that they saw and recognized them as angels (as Abraham and Lot had done before them) that drove them to their attempt. But why? Why would men desire sex with angels? Now we get to the final piece of the puzzle, the reason the angels were cast into Tartarus, which is for doing the same thing the men of Sodom attempted to do.

                      Scripture Verse: Genesis 6

                      When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

                      4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Now the obvious meaning of "sons of God" as opposed to "human beings" is angels, and indeed that is how "sons of God" is used throughout the Old Testament, as has been pointed out and ignored on this forum before. But another reason it must mean angels is because this is the only place we have a possible explanation as to the "disobedience" and "abandonment of authority and natural dwelling" that the imprisoned angels in Tartarus stand accused of. And like the men of Sodom, they sought (and engaged in) perverse sex--that is, sex with a creature not of "their kind" (God made all creatures after their own kind).

                      And this happened "in the days of Noah".

                      Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

                      36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      So now we know that there are angels imprisoned in a "special place in hell" awaiting "the day of judgement".
                      They do engage in "perverse sex" - as described in 1 Enoch 6-10. It is "perverse", not because it is between two person of the same sex, but because it is a crossing of the line, (as it were), between the human and angelic "states".

                      https://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpse...ch/ENOCH_1.HTM

                      Their "special place" of imprisonment is described in 1 Enoch 10.

                      Noah is referred to in 1 Enoch - in 10.2 he is warned of the "end that is approaching".
                      But this cannot mean the judgment following the resurrection before the throne of Christ, because they are said to be released to kill a third of mankind. The "day of judgment" spoken of can only mean the "Day of the Lord", the proverbial "day" that God judges the nations/Gentiles/members of Daniel's "statue" for their rebellion to His rule. This period is also knows as the tribulation. And this period most certainly did not occur in the first century, at the least because angels did not ascend from hell to slaughter a third of mankind.
                      Good luck spiritualizing this away, preterists.
                      No "spiritualising away" is needed, or desirable.
                      STM tne "day of judgement" is a day of judgement" upon Jerusalem. Amos threatens judgement upon the nations, not to vindicate Israel, but including Israel. John takes that thought further, identifying Jerusalem as Babylon, Nineveh, Tyre, Sodom and Ai.

                      A "third of mankind" = presumably a third of the Jews, in the Jewish War. There was no need for "angels...[to] ascend from Hell".

                      As for a "tribulation" - the events surrounding the Fall of Jerusalem were a very great tribulation. Revelations hints at this; Josephus spells it out. Not to mention the Olivet Discourse of Jesus in the Gospels.

                      The passage in Rev 9 about the four angels may or may not be related to the ideas in 1 Enoch. Here it is:

                      "13Then the sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God
                      14saying to the sixth angel with the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”
                      15So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.
                      16And the number of mounted troops was two hundred million; I heard their number.
                      17Now the horses and riders in my vision looked like this: The riders had breastplates the colors of fire, sapphire, and sulfur. The heads of the horses were like the heads of lions, and out of their mouths proceeded fire, smoke, and sulfur. 18A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke, and sulfur that proceeded from their mouths.
                      19For the power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; indeed, their tails were like snakes, having heads with which to inflict harm.
                      20Now the rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. 21Furthermore, they did not repent of their murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft."

                      ISTM that the judgements of the sixth seal in Rev 6.12-17, of the sixth trumpet in this passage Rev 9.13-21, and of the sixth vial or bowl in Rev 16.12-16, are the same event. To quote the last passage:"12And the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings of the East.
                      13And I saw three unclean spirits that looked like frogs coming out of the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14These are demonic spirits that perform signs and go out to all the kings of the earth, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.

                      15“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed.”

                      16And they assembled the kings in the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon."

                      https://biblehub.com/bsb/revelation/16.htm

                      I think 16.12 explains the four angels of 9.14-16, perhaps as destroying angels. Why four ? Perhaps as a sign of the universality of God's judgement - as in Zechariah 1.8, 6.1-8; and Rev 6: https://www.enterthebible.org/Contro...original_id=56




                      Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 06-07-2021, 12:19 AM.

                      Comment


                      • You talk too much for a dude who quotes the book of Enoch as authoritative. Jude quoting a potentially authentic portion of what is now the book of Enoch does not canonize it. It is contradictory and absurd in many places.

                        You also admit the angels sinned sexually (I never said their sin was sodomy) and that they were judged, but that it has nothing to do with the angels "bound at the river Euphrates". Pretty specific location for a metaphor.

                        I give you credit for noting the parallels between the Flood narrative and the Sodom judgment, but the rest of your post was ridiculous.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Exegesis while on drugs is bad, mkay?

                          Pro tip: Greek mythology is not scripture.
                          Still, it seems strange that the author - whether or not St Peter - makes a verb out of the name of Tartaros, the Greek place of post mortem torment.

                          One would expect an expression using a term like "Gehenna". 2 Peter 2.4 is the only place in NT whether the verb occurs: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexi...sb20/mgnt/0-1/

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                            You talk too much for a dude who quotes the book of Enoch as authoritative.
                            What is the logical connection between

                            a. a poster's notions about a book
                            b. whether that poster "talks too much" ?

                            Enlighten me, please.

                            Your comment implies that because (you think) I have certain opinions about 1 Enoch, therefore I am not allowed to comment. By what right do you say that ?

                            As for regarding 1 Enoch - there are three Enoch books altogether, so it is useful to distinguish them - as "authoritative": it depends what you have in mind. I think the book is very valuable, in a number of respects, as a specimen of pre-Christian Jewish apocalyptic, but that does not mean I regard it as Scripture; if that is your point. And, in fact, I don't so regard it.

                            Whether a book is regarded as Scripture, or not, is an entirely different question from whether, or in what ways, a book may have influenced the people who appear to have known of it, and to have read it. It illustrates several passages of the NT - therefore, it is entirely legitimate to say so, and to explain why that is so.
                            Jude quoting a potentially authentic portion of what is now the book of Enoch does not canonize it.
                            I don't recall saying it was canonical, nor that Jude so regarded it (though such a case can certainly be made). The question of its canonicity is beside the point.
                            It is contradictory and absurd in many places
                            Which is what people often say about the Bible. "Absurd and contradictory" - by what standards ? That modern readers may find a book "absurd and contradictory" tells one something about the readers, and very little about the book. The readers may well be reading it with the wrong (literary) expectations. That is a fault in the readers - not in the book.

                            As for absurdity - the Gospel is a tissue of absurdities. It is only because Christians are used to the Gospel, and largely ignorant of the NT world, that we do not notice them.

                            The alleged deficiencies of 1 Enoch, however real they may be, have no bearing on the entirely separate question of whether it influenced Christ, the Apostles, the early Church, or the NT. What a priori reason is there, why it cannot have done so ?
                            You also admit the angels sinned sexually (I never said their sin was sodomy
                            Indeed you did not - but what did you say to guard against that inference ? When that episode is referred to in Christian circles, it is routinely referred to in connection with (what is commonly called) sodomy.

                            That the sin of the "angels" is represented as being sexual in whole or in part, is not in dispute.
                            and that they were judged, but that it has nothing to do with the angels "bound at the river Euphrates". Pretty specific location for a metaphor.
                            What is there to stop that phrase being a metaphor ? If you have (what you regard, rightly or wrongly, as) a less inadequate interpretation - why not put it forward ? Irresponsible carping is a game anyone can play - but it's not very constructive. It does nothing to clarify the meaning of the passage.

                            Why can a metaphor not be expressed using the name of a real place ? Presumably you've not heard of "carrying coals to Newcastle" - a metaphor in reasonably common use, which uses the name of a real place.
                            I give you credit for noting the parallels between the Flood narrative and the Sodom judgment, but the rest of your post was ridiculous.
                            As for the length of my post: that was regrettable, certainly undesirable, but difficult to avoid. As for it being "ridiculous" - "what is freely asserted, is as freely denied".

                            Your own post was detailed, and a long one. So I could not answer it fairly, without quoting it at length. If I had confined myself to setting out what I thought of the passages you quoted, the complaint would likely have been that I was avoiding quoting what you said because I had no answer to it.
                            Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 06-16-2021, 07:16 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                              Pathetic
                              So what is the justification for combining two passages that - as far as the words in them go - may, or may not, be connected ?


                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seanD View Post

                                That's what I thought.

                                And btw, I'll also add, it makes it even more disingenuous to me to assume you believe Matthew's description is not the same event as described in 1 Thess. I mean it's practically the same description, albeit with a little more detail on Paul's part.
                                FWIW, it never occurred to this reader that the two passages are referring to the same event. They may be - but their identity needs to be shown, by exegesis; not taken for granted.

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