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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Darfius View Post
    The Word of God--who is Christ--encompasses both "the letter" and "the spirit". "I have not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it." And "You should have done the latter without neglecting the former."

    It comes down to accepting that this world is still run by Satan--the "god of this world"--with God for the past couple of thousand years "only" intervening to keep a hedge of protection around His individual people and even then sometimes lifting that so they can be witnesses of Christ. The evidence that the devil still controls this world is legion, beginning with the untold number of deaths in the 20th century alone, a horror that is easily forgotten by most, but not all. There is no evidence whatsoever that the kingdom of Christ has "conquered" the world.

    That being the case, God foretells in both the OT and NT how He will one day regather "His" people (a second time, to quote Isaiah) to form a nation that is His. Not a nation "without borders", but a nation like other nations, unlike only in that it will be "founded in righteousness" and the knowledge of God will flow out to the nations "from His mountain".

    The reason the Antichrist feels compelled to disrupt the services in the rebuilt temple is because it is perceived as an unacceptable affront to his master, the devil, and to himself. I know of no way to make sense of Paul's direct claim that this will happen by "spiritualizing" it. He gives the scenario as a specific time marker, to my mind specifically to avoid any assertion that it can be "symbolic" and some sort of "eternal principle." "That day cannot come until..." and "when you see...spoken of by Daniel the prophet...flee!"

    The proper literal interpretation will always be superior to any "spiritual" interpretation because it includes, informs, manifests and gives discernible bounds to the spiritual. We can only come to the Father through the Son.
    I think Paul is clear about how the scriptures should be understood.

    2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    He also makes it clear that it is about how the scriptures are understood.

    2 Cor 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

    John the Baptist was asked if he was Elias and he denied it.

    John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

    But Jesus said:

    Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

    Jesus called for spiritual understanding. John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elias.

    Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

    To depend on the letter brings death.

    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    Last edited by eschaton; 04-09-2020, 12:01 PM.
    The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
      I guess you missed the part where I said I got the 40 year number from futurists writers? Here, I've done your homework for you, see here and here for just 2 examples. They were interpreting signs and saying that when these signs started, (were already starting in their estimation) the tribulation would start within 40 years...

      Also, you're ignoring what Terraceth post earlier about the life expectancy was shorter because of high infant mortality rates. That skews the number way down. So, yes, you're are hand waving it.

      I'm not trying to conveniently stretch anything, I'm using what I've always been taught. If you have evidence to the contrary present it or concede it's plausible.
      Bro, you're using a futurist interpretation (which is most likely wrong) of what they believe constitutes a generation for a preterist interpretation of a generation? Wow
      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by eschaton View Post
        I think Paul is clear about how the scriptures should be understood.

        2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

        He also makes it clear that it is about how the scriptures are understood.

        2 Cor 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

        John the Baptist was asked if he was Elias and he denied it.

        John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

        But Jesus said:

        Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

        Jesus called for spiritual understanding. John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elias.

        Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

        To depend on the letter brings death.

        Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
        You're getting into preterist gibberish/private interpretation territory. You know you have to know how to read before you can push your high and mighty "spiritual" interpretation, right? How much of the letter is too much before it starts to kill? The "law" and "letter" Jesus and Paul were talking about was the "oral law", not the words of God. And who is the arbiter of which "spiritual" interpretation is correct and how much of the words of God should be ignored? Revelation places a curse on anyone "taking away" from Scripture and Jesus said not one jot or tittle would pass away.

        Also, as is my right, duty and pleasure, I shall back you into a corner (in a friendly, loving, instructive way) with Scripture:

        Scripture Verse: Malachi 4

        4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
        5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

        © Copyright Original Source



        Reminding the people of the law of Moses is clearly part of the job description of the Elijah which preceded the Lord's first coming and the Elijah who will precede His second. That is to say, the opposite of the private interpretation you are pushing. Turns out God did not write Scripture for us to think we know better than what it says, but for us to heed it bearing in mind that of course He means more than merely what is written. But He never means less.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by seanD View Post
          Bro, you're using a futurist interpretation (which is most likely wrong) of what they believe constitutes a generation for a preterist interpretation of a generation? Wow
          Whatever bro. I'm using a futurist view and you're a futurist but you think they are wrong and you're laughing at my view...can't make this stuff up...
          "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

          "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
            Whatever bro. I'm using a futurist view and you're a futurist but you think they are wrong and you're laughing at my view...can't make this stuff up...
            I honestly can't believe... and I'm being serious here... you used that for your argument of why a generation should be 40 years in ancient culture and expected me to "concede" that.

            Your problem is you think in black and white. You think every futurist believes the same thing. Why would you believe that when it's obvious there are varying views on this subject between futurists? The Hal Lindseys are not the be-all, end-all of futurist views.

            Obviously they were wrong, because they claimed it would happen in the 80s and it didn't, so that automatically disqualifies their whole interpretation, including what they claimed constituted a generation, as if that was even a plausible argument to begin with. The question is, why are you adopting that erroneous interpretation of a generation and expecting me to accept it?
            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by seanD View Post
              I honestly can't believe... and I'm being serious here... you used that for your argument of why a generation should be 40 years in ancient culture and expected me to "concede" that.

              Your problem is you think in black and white. You think every futurist believes the same thing. Why would you believe that when it's obvious there are varying views on this subject between futurists? The Hal Lindseys are not the be-all, end-all of futurist views.

              Obviously they were wrong, because they claimed it would happen in the 80s and it didn't, so that automatically disqualifies their whole interpretation, including what they claimed constituted a generation, as if that was even a plausible argument to begin with. The question is, why are you adopting that erroneous interpretation of a generation and expecting me to accept it?
              Ok, got it. Futurists who got any Biblical prophecy wrong are wrong about everything they write...Ok, NP. Tell me Sean, since you've ducked this question multiple times...how long is a generation in Jesus time? All you've done so far is just tell me I'm wrong. Where's your proof I'm wrong except your begging the question defense?
              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                Ok, got it. Futurists who got any Biblical prophecy wrong are wrong about everything they write...Ok, NP. Tell me Sean, since you've ducked this question multiple times...how long is a generation in Jesus time? All you've done so far is just tell me I'm wrong. Where's your proof I'm wrong except your begging the question defense?
                I've already told. We consider a generation about 30 years, so I have no reason to believe the ancients considered it any longer than that when they lived shorter lives and had children earlier than we do. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see any better argument than that, short of actually researching the subject through ancient records themselves or scholarly works; preferably scholars without any eschatological agendas.

                And about the 40 year prediction you referenced, I could have told you they wrong even before they were proven wrong. Firstly, 40 years is not even what we consider a generation as I said. They were obviously doing the same exact thing you're doing, stretching it to try and get it to fit their interpretation. They believed that the formation of Israel in the 40s had some significance to the fig tree reference in the OD, or that's supposedly where the "countdown" started.

                I would have rejected this right from the outset. First of all, when someone... anyone... sets a specific year or date, RUN FOR THE HILLS. At least that's my motto, and I don't care who it is. The fact they picked a specific year -- bzzzz! Wrong. Secondly, they obviously ignored Luke's version where it puts no significance on the fig tree itself ("and all the trees"). So the fact Luke's version is not consistent with the others, means it had nothing to do with the formation of Israel. Jesus was just using it as an illustration of forecasting the situation. He was saying you will know when he's "at the door" when you see the signs, much like knowing when a certain season is near. My interpretation of that is he meant you will know the generation, not any specific year.
                "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                Comment


                • #98
                  Scripture Verse: Psalm 90

                  A prayer of Moses the man of God.
                  1
                  Lord, you have been our dwelling place
                  throughout all generations.
                  2
                  Before the mountains were born
                  or you brought forth the whole world,
                  from everlasting to everlasting you are God.
                  3
                  You turn people back to dust,
                  saying, “Return to dust, you mortals.”
                  4
                  A thousand years in your sight
                  are like a day that has just gone by,
                  or like a watch in the night.
                  5
                  Yet you sweep people away in the sleep of death—
                  they are like the new grass of the morning:
                  6
                  In the morning it springs up new,
                  but by evening it is dry and withered.
                  7
                  We are consumed by your anger
                  and terrified by your indignation.
                  8
                  You have set our iniquities before you,
                  our secret sins in the light of your presence.
                  9
                  All our days pass away under your wrath;
                  we finish our years with a moan.
                  10
                  Our days may come to seventy years,
                  or eighty, if our strength endures
                  ;
                  yet the best of them are but trouble and sorrow,
                  for they quickly pass, and we fly away.
                  11
                  If only we knew the power of your anger!
                  Your wrath is as great as the fear that is your due.
                  12
                  Teach us to number our days,
                  that we may gain a heart of wisdom
                  .
                  13
                  Relent, Lord! How long will it be?
                  Have compassion on your servants.
                  14
                  Satisfy us in the morning with your unfailing love,
                  that we may sing for joy and be glad all our days.
                  15
                  Make us glad for as many days as you have afflicted us,
                  for as many years as we have seen trouble.
                  16
                  May your deeds be shown to your servants,
                  your splendor to their children.
                  17
                  May the favor of the Lord our God rest on us;
                  establish the work of our hands for us—
                  yes, establish the work of our hands.

                  © Copyright Original Source

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Scripture Verse: Deuteronomy 32

                    45 When Moses finished reciting all these words to all Israel, 46 he said to them, “Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law. 47 They are not just idle words for you—they are your life. By them you will live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.”

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                      You're getting into preterist gibberish/private interpretation territory. You know you have to know how to read before you can push your high and mighty "spiritual" interpretation, right? How much of the letter is too much before it starts to kill? The "law" and "letter" Jesus and Paul were talking about was the "oral law", not the words of God. And who is the arbiter of which "spiritual" interpretation is correct and how much of the words of God should be ignored? Revelation places a curse on anyone "taking away" from Scripture and Jesus said not one jot or tittle would pass away.

                      Also, as is my right, duty and pleasure, I shall back you into a corner (in a friendly, loving, instructive way) with Scripture:

                      Scripture Verse: Malachi 4

                      4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
                      5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Reminding the people of the law of Moses is clearly part of the job description of the Elijah which preceded the Lord's first coming and the Elijah who will precede His second. That is to say, the opposite of the private interpretation you are pushing. Turns out God did not write Scripture for us to think we know better than what it says, but for us to heed it bearing in mind that of course He means more than merely what is written. But He never means less.
                      The thing to remember is that the OT should be interpreted spiritually. People like Justin Martyr and Irenaeus agreed with this.

                      Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

                      I guess if the scriptures were to be understood literally the Jews would have understood who Jesus was. Seeing they couldn't see and hearing they couldn't hear.

                      Here is a premillennial question for you.

                      Eze 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

                      Most pre-mills believe this is the millennial temple. Heaven and earth flee away after the millennium (Rev 20:11). The New heaven and earth are found in Rev 21. How can Ezekiel's temple be forever if the old earth passes away?
                      The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

                      https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

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                      • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                        So I did understand you correctly, so what was the flak about? I don't agree they're separate subjects. That's ridiculous considering they're in the same context of Paul's discussion.
                        What a devastating rebuttal.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                        • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          I've already told. We consider a generation about 30 years, so I have no reason to believe the ancients considered it any longer than that when they lived shorter lives and had children earlier than we do. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see any better argument than that, short of actually researching the subject through ancient records themselves or scholarly works; preferably scholars without any eschatological agendas.
                          See, this is a perfect example of why it's generally not worth my time to explain things to you. Rather than studying ancient culture and scholarly works, you make up a number based on modern American culture, blithely assume that it holds for an entirely different time and culture, and then handwave away arguments to the contrary.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            See, this is a perfect example of why it's generally not worth my time to explain things to you. Rather than studying ancient culture and scholarly works, you make up a number based on modern American culture, blithely assume that it holds for an entirely different time and culture, and then handwave away arguments to the contrary.
                            So you're saying I should accept the argument that the ancient Jews considered a generation 40 years because a bunch of futurists, who believed the countdown to the tribulation was the formation of Israel, made a false prediction about the tribulation happening in the 80s because they also believed that a generation was 40 years?
                            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by eschaton View Post
                              The thing to remember is that the OT should be interpreted spiritually. People like Justin Martyr and Irenaeus agreed with this.
                              While Justin Martyr and Irenaeus can provide interesting information about the beliefs and practices of the early church, their beliefs and practices are in no way authoritative independent of Scriptural support. "Tradition" is the way the Jews and Catholics perverted the truth into Babylonian knockoffs.

                              Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

                              I guess if the scriptures were to be understood literally the Jews would have understood who Jesus was. Seeing they couldn't see and hearing they couldn't hear.
                              "Literally", the Scriptures present both a suffering Messiah and a conquering one. The Jews hoped for and therefore expected the wrong version of the Messiah. Even still, those most educated in Scripture (the Pharisees and Sanhedrin) knew Jesus was the Messiah. They just rejected Him. "It is better for one man to die for the people than that the whole nation perish." Caiaphas was basically saying, "since Jesus will not be the conquering Messiah we desire, we will help Him be the suffering Messiah He appears to want to be."

                              Here is a premillennial question for you.

                              Eze 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

                              Most pre-mills believe this is the millennial temple. Heaven and earth flee away after the millennium (Rev 20:11). The New heaven and earth are found in Rev 21. How can Ezekiel's temple be forever if the old earth passes away?
                              God says His "dwelling" will be there (on Mt. Zion in Jerusalem), but He does not specify that a specific building will last forever. Actually, according to Scripture, the rebuilt temple will be defiled by the Antichrist, so I'm not sure where the idea came that it would "last forever."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                See, this is a perfect example of why it's generally not worth my time to explain things to you. Rather than studying ancient culture and scholarly works, you make up a number based on modern American culture, blithely assume that it holds for an entirely different time and culture, and then handwave away arguments to the contrary.
                                Jews and generations..

                                The number of years that elapse before the children of one set of human beings arrive at a marriageable age. This number has been defined to be equal to the average male age at marriage, plus one year before child-bearing begins, plus half the average number of years during which fecundity lasts. As a rule, Jews marry much earlier than the rest of the male population among which they dwell, probably owing to the rabbinic requirement that a man should marry before attaining the age of twenty (Ḳid. 29b). On the other hand, their fecundity is greater; therefore the time of fertility of the female is longer; but exact figures concerning this detail are not available. From such data as are obtainable it appears that Jews marry at the age of twenty-two, as compared with twenty-nine for the rest of the population (Mayo-Smith, "Science of Statistics," i. 103); while fertility lasts, on an average, for fourteen years after marriage, as compared with twelve among non-Jews (ib. 113). This would give the length of a generation among Jews as thirty years, as compared with thirty-six in the remaining population.
                                And they obviously don't have any sort of eschatological bias. If you have a better source, put up or shut up.
                                "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                                Comment

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