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Special place in hell (for preterists)

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  • Special place in hell (for preterists)

    Scripture Verse: Revelation 9

    13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Uhhh, why are angels bound at the Euphrates and when were they released to kill a third of mankind? Welcome to another edition of "Questions preterists have never cared enough about God or the truth or anyone to ask, let alone answer."

    Scripture Verse: 2 Peter 2

    4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, [Tartarus] putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

    © Copyright Original Source



    These angels must have done something very bad to be "put in chains" and "imprisoned in darkness". We'll get to what they did in a minute, but let's address why Peter used a specifically Greek concept to describe their "special place in hell". In Greek mythology, there were a lot of coups amongst the gods. Chronos led his brother and sister Titans [his generation of the gods] to rebel successfully against their father Uranus to seize power. After ruling during a "golden age", Cronos' own kids, led by Zeus, got the same idea and warred against the Titans, defeating them and casting them into dark imprisonment in Tartarus, described specifically as a place "where light could not enter." Sound like "chains of darkness" to anyone else? Peter, like the other prophets who wrote Scripture, did not select his words at random, but as he was led to by the Spirit of Christ. Also note that he mentions Noah's flood right after this. That's important.

    Scripture Verse: 1 Peter 3

    18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Again Peter mentions "imprisoned spirits" in the context of the time of Noah's flood (the "days of Noah"). These are obviously the same imprisoned angels in Tartarus. He even confirms this is who he means by specifically mentioning the "angels, authorities and powers" in submission to Christ--undoubtedly the subject of His proclamation to them. And Peter mentions their "disobedience", which brings us back to why they were imprisoned in the first place.

    Scripture Verse: Jude

    6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Jude mentions these same rebellious (disobedient) angels who are "kept in darkness and chains" (Tartarus). And he also gives insight into the exact nature of their rebellion and disobedience. They abandoned their "proper dwelling", "authority" (another intentional word linkage to Peter) and engaged in sexual immorality and perversion in the same vein as those in Sodom and Gomorrah. Now the particular sexual sins of Sodom can be found in Scripture:

    Scripture Verse: Genesis 19

    The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”
    “No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”
    3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    Now obviously having sex with other men was not a foreign concept to the men of Sodom, but also obvious is that they did not rape every man who passed through the city. We know that Lot never had sex with them, though he lived amongst them:

    Scripture Verse: 2 Peter 2

    7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)

    © Copyright Original Source



    So it was not mere homosexual lust that drove them to attempt to rape these angels. It was the fact that they saw and recognized them as angels (as Abraham and Lot had done before them) that drove them to their attempt. But why? Why would men desire sex with angels? Now we get to the final piece of the puzzle, the reason the angels were cast into Tartarus, which is for doing the same thing the men of Sodom attempted to do.

    Scripture Verse: Genesis 6

    When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”
    4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Now the obvious meaning of "sons of God" as opposed to "human beings" is angels, and indeed that is how "sons of God" is used throughout the Old Testament, as has been pointed out and ignored on this forum before. But another reason it must mean angels is because this is the only place we have a possible explanation as to the "disobedience" and "abandonment of authority and natural dwelling" that the imprisoned angels in Tartarus stand accused of. And like the men of Sodom, they sought (and engaged in) perverse sex--that is, sex with a creature not of "their kind" (God made all creatures after their own kind).

    And this happened "in the days of Noah".

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

    36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

    © Copyright Original Source



    So now we know that there are angels imprisoned in a "special place in hell" awaiting "the day of judgement". But this cannot mean the judgment following the resurrection before the throne of Christ, because they are said to be released to kill a third of mankind. The "day of judgment" spoken of can only mean the "Day of the Lord", the proverbial "day" that God judges the nations/Gentiles/members of Daniel's "statue" for their rebellion to His rule. This period is also knows as the tribulation. And this period most certainly did not occur in the first century, at the least because angels did not ascend from hell to slaughter a third of mankind.

    Good luck spiritualizing this away, preterists.

  • #2
    Exegesis while on drugs is bad, mkay?

    Pro tip: Greek mythology is not scripture.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #3
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Exegesis while on drugs is bad, mkay?

      Pro tip: Greek mythology is not scripture.
      Peter was the one who was led to reference Greek mythology by using the word "tartarus" for hell, genius. Next time read before you comment.

      Comment


      • #4
        Cobbling together verses to make them say what they do not really say shows how desperate you are to prove preterism wrong. Nowhere are the 4 angels specified to be the angels bound from the flood. It's smoke and mirrors. And to pretend that preterist haven't an answer shows your dishonesty. You're a joke to futurist the world over.
        "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

        "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Darfius View Post
          Jude mentions these same rebellious (disobedient) angels who are "kept in darkness and chains" (Tartarus). And he also gives insight into the exact nature of their rebellion and disobedience. They abandoned their "proper dwelling", "authority" (another intentional word linkage to Peter) and engaged in sexual immorality and perversion in the same vein as those in Sodom and Gomorrah.
          There is no "word linkage" with the word authority. While the translation you utilized did use the same English word, the original language uses different words (Peter uses exousion and Jude uses archen).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
            Cobbling together verses to make them say what they do not really say shows how desperate you are to prove preterism wrong. Nowhere are the 4 angels specified to be the angels bound from the flood. It's smoke and mirrors. And to pretend that preterist haven't an answer shows your dishonesty. You're a joke to futurist the world over.
            "Cobbling together verses" is called searching the Scriptures by the Scriptures, moron. There is only one group of angels said to be bound and one group of angels said to have done a "boundable" offense. It's open and shut, whether you are good or intelligent enough to see it.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
              There is no "word linkage" with the word authority. While the translation you utilized did use the same English word, the original language uses different words (Peter uses exousion and Jude uses archen).
              Pathetic

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                "Cobbling together verses" is called searching the Scriptures by the Scriptures, moron. There is only one group of angels said to be bound and one group of angels said to have done a "boundable" offense. It's open and shut, whether you are good or intelligent enough to see it.
                Nope, it's called eisegesis. Open and shut only in your small mind.
                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                  Nope, it's called eisegesis. Open and shut only in your small mind.
                  Seeing what passages have to say about each other in the Bible is perfectly valid, and I agree with much of what Darfius has posted in his OP. Just not his hostile way of posting it.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                    Peter was the one who was led to reference Greek mythology by using the word "tartarus" for hell, genius. Next time read before you comment.
                    Peter used a Greek word for the undesirable destination in the afterlife because he was writing to Greeks. IOW, he was aiming for understanding, not dragging in all of Greek mythology, like you did.

                    Between that, your dependence on speculative mindreading of people from a wholly different culture and era, and your hostile tone, I'm not seeing much reason to take you seriously.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Peter used a Greek word for the undesirable destination in the afterlife because he was writing to Greeks. IOW, he was aiming for understanding, not dragging in all of Greek mythology, like you did.

                      Between that, your dependence on speculative mindreading of people from a wholly different culture and era, and your hostile tone, I'm not seeing much reason to take you seriously.
                      Just out of curiosity (serious question), does preterism have explanations/interpretations for all the "angels bound" references made in the passages the OP eludes to?

                      As far as preterism's perspective of the book of Rev in general... I mean, that's got be make for some wild and imaginative interpretative efforts to try and decipher the meaning of the supposed symbolism in Rev 9, doesn't it?
                      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seanD View Post
                        Just out of curiosity (serious question), does preterism have explanations/interpretations for all the "angels bound" references made in the passages the OP eludes to?
                        I'm sure the passages in question have been examined by preterists.
                        As far as preterism's perspective of the book of Rev in general... I mean, that's got be make for some wild and imaginative interpretative efforts to try and decipher the meaning of the supposed symbolism in Rev 9, doesn't it?
                        Not that I recall. Revelation is highly symbolic throughout, and the wildest and most imaginative interpretive efforts I've seen are those that attempt to take the text literally.

                        I am not a preterist because I've spent oodles of time studying it and am thus heavily invested in maintaining it. I was raised on dispensational pre-trib pre-mill futurism. I am a preterist because the preterist interpretations I've seen generally make far more sense in context of the texts and their times than futurism does. I've done rather more reading on the ANE and early church in general than on preterism, and preterism is no more than an interesting side topic for me. I'm sure I will get to my other books on preterism eventually, but I'm stuck at home with a toddler for the foreseeable future, and don't get much reading done these days.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Peter used a Greek word for the undesirable destination in the afterlife because he was writing to Greeks. IOW, he was aiming for understanding, not dragging in all of Greek mythology, like you did.

                          Between that, your dependence on speculative mindreading of people from a wholly different culture and era, and your hostile tone, I'm not seeing much reason to take you seriously.
                          About your nonsense that Peter wrote "to Greeks", the churches in Asia Minor--a Roman province--were a mixture of Roman, Greek, Persian, Anatolian, etc. peoples. Rather, these different tribes all shared a common "Hellenistic" culture, similar to how many nations today have adopted much of "American" culture while still maintaining their own religious, national and cultural traditions. So that's a nonstarter of an argument.

                          He used a Greek word with a specific connotation unlike the Greek word he had used in other contexts (Acts 2:27,31), had heard the Lord use (Matt 16:18) and which was the "normal" Greek word for the afterlife--Hades. In fact, thank you for strengthening my argument by pointing out that the place (Tartarus) he cites as the dungeon-like abode of the rebellious angels is similar to the "Abyss" in Revelation--a lower tier "within" hell separate from the mass of unredeemed damned reserved for the greatest offenders, which the rebellious angels would certainly qualify as.

                          Where exactly was my "speculative" mindreading? Be specific so we can hash this out like men seeking the truth, rather than one man speaking boldly with authority gained from the knowledge that he is seeking the truth with integrity and the other "man" lobbing unspecific, unconvincing accusations in a bid to maintain the veneer of respectability while having a cavalier attitude toward the truth.

                          My hostile tone arises from being surrounded by zombie-like "followers of Christ" who care so little for the truth that they cannot see or acknowledge the world falling apart around them, putting themselves and everyone around them in danger. For a similar reason, John the Baptist did not cry out, "You're all doing a great job seeking and following God! I mean really, you're all clearly great people who don't even need a Savior! I feel so redundant because you're all such lovely, lovely folks!" Honestly, I'm not even that hostile--certainly not as hostile as I am capable of being--it's just that you've (and other Western "Christians") been so hyper feminized in the past couple of generations that you tear up every time someone doesn't "acknowledge your value" or forgets your participation trophy. I don't want you or anyone to perish, man. If pointing out your sin in a way noxious enough to get you to wake up to it is what is required, I would rather do that than whisper sweet nothings in your ear as you slide into hell. Repent.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            I'm sure the passages in question have been examined by preterists.
                            Sounds legit to me, sean, how about you? "I'm not sure what the truth is on this, but I'm sure someone more concerned with the truth than me has covered it." *handwave flourish at the end*

                            Not that I recall. Revelation is highly symbolic throughout, and the wildest and most imaginative interpretive efforts I've seen are those that attempt to take the text literally.
                            "I know Revelation is highly symbolic because I know it is. Besides, if we take it literally, that would make John a crazy religious freak and us for believing him. Sure, I love Christ. Whatever."

                            I am not a preterist because I've spent oodles of time studying it and am thus heavily invested in maintaining it. I was raised on dispensational pre-trib pre-mill futurism. I am a preterist because the preterist interpretations I've seen generally make far more sense in context of the texts and their times than futurism does. I've done rather more reading on the ANE and early church in general than on preterism, and preterism is no more than an interesting side topic for me. I'm sure I will get to my other books on preterism eventually, but I'm stuck at home with a toddler for the foreseeable future, and don't get much reading done these days.
                            "I don't believe what I believe because I hunger and thirst for righteousness. I follow the traditions of my fathers. I believe what I believe because when I spent what little time I have spent looking into the most important matters in this world or the next through half-opened eyes, meh, good enough. Ttyl, it's hard to change my toddler's diaper, hold my phone and defend the claims I somehow had time to make in the previous posts before this one."

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                              Sounds legit to me, sean, how about you? "I'm not sure what the truth is on this, but I'm sure someone more concerned with the truth than me has covered it." *handwave flourish at the end*



                              "I know Revelation is highly symbolic because I know it is. Besides, if we take it literally, that would make John a crazy religious freak and us for believing him. Sure, I love Christ. Whatever."



                              "I don't believe what I believe because I hunger and thirst for righteousness. I follow the traditions of my fathers. I believe what I believe because when I spent what little time I have spent looking into the most important matters in this world or the next through half-opened eyes, meh, good enough. Ttyl, it's hard to change my toddler's diaper, hold my phone and defend the claims I somehow had time to make in the previous posts before this one."
                              I was responding forthrightly to a serious question. The end times are a fascinating topic, but I consider it more profitable to be ready to meet my Maker at any time than to worry how exactly the end of the world will occur. After all, it is rather more likely that I will die before that happens - and if it does, I'm signed by the seal of the cross, so I'm good.

                              You might want to consider remedial classes in mind-reading - heck, reading too while you're at it. Maybe you missed it in your zeal to be as jackass as possible, but the "traditions of my fathers" is dispensational futurism. Fail better.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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