Taliban Hangs Four Bodies In Public Square in Western Afghanistan

[tabibito]

One could say....



Some more of your weird logic.

His ability to read the Bible does seem a little compromised - perhaps it comes from reading too many books by synchretising theologians.

[siam]

I noted that there is no specific punishments proscribed in the qu'ran but also noted it is included in the various Hadiths, which are regarded as sacred texts.

And yes, there has been some efforts by a few modern scholars to reinterpret the passages condemning homosexuality. FWIU, they want to reinterpret them to be prohibitions on only forced homosexuality. Rape. Of course there is absolutely nothing whatsoever in the text that supports this new view. It is an obvious example of eisegesis.

But the overall point, that Islam has been condemning and punishing homosexual behavior pretty much since its inception and your claim that it is only a recent thing brought about by colonialism is easily disproved

Hadith are not "sacred"---that is, everyone acknowledges there are degrees of validity, as well as interpretation of ahadith. Not to mention---there is something obviously wrong if a claim goes against the principles of the Quran...!?....
So far....facts/research prove that punishment for Sodomy was not rigorously enforced in pre-modern Fiqh courts.

also....the impact of colonialism cannot be underestimated......
https://www.economist.com/open-futur...he-middle-east
"The first is the influence, directly or indirectly, of European powers in the region. In 1885 the British government introduced new penal codes that punished all homosexual behaviour. Of the more than 70 countries that criminalise homosexual acts today, over half are former British colonies. France introduced similar laws around the same time. After independence, only Jordan and Bahrain did away with such penalties."

There is nothing wrong with one culture influencing another---that is how human development occurs....and there is also nothing wrong with discarding or re-imagining those influences when they are no longer appropriate....?.....At one time homosexuality was not punished in the East, then it was criminalized, but....this issue can be re-imagined again as appropriate for the socio-cultural circumstances.....

The Quran strongly discourages drunkeness and so alcoholic beverages are frowned upon...Yet Muslims did drink and poetry about drinking was common and popular.....
here is a verse by the (Bawdy) poet Abu Nawas of the Abbasid period.....

"If apple is but wine, solidified,

And wine is apple, only liquefied,

You'll find, if drinking is not temporized,

Substantial joy and pleasure, actualized!"

This same poet also wrote homoerotic poetry....(as did other well known poets....) The culture in the East in pre-modern times was different than what it is today. So obviously the laws of the period would have reflected this to some extent.....

[siam]

Hello again..... :)
Islam has the same routes as Judaism, Christianity and even Bahaism...... call it Abrahamic or Adamic... as you please.

That's the same as with the MOsaic Laws, Siam. Of the 613 laws about 200 wewre all about ceremony, ritual, devotion, etc.

Yes, we can all speak out against oppression and injustice; as many Western women can tell you over their oppression in certain Western countries.
But talk is cheap. So what to do?

By all means. Can you think of a good example of a country that follows your ideas closely?

Abrahamic/Adamic---I suppose " cultural appropriation" might appear different according to different perspectives...and many might feel a degree of attachment to their cultural history.....

Judaism/Islam---There are many similarities between Judaism and Islam....even I was surprised.....More so than between Christianity and Islam IMO....

Example---The example of the Prophet (pbuh) might be interesting----The Prophet was invited to an area called Yathrib which was traumatized with longstanding tribal warfare. He made a deal with the representatives of the region that they would abide by the law if he were to lead them. They agreed.
The city became "Medina" and the Prophet dealt with tribal disputes through law and made a constitution for tribal co-existence (constitution of Medina)---he also explained his policies to both men and women and got the votes/agreement from both groups to be their leader. He also started a mentorship program between the residents of Medina and the immigrants so that both would help each other and socio-cultural clashes and misunderstandings could be avoided. He made peace treaties with the surrounding tribes...and when one such peace treaty was broken and war broke out, he gave amnesty to those who were defeated (the Meccans).
Justice and law can bring peace if the intent to achieve peace is clear and strong.

[eider]

Um... where are you getting this absurd idea that Jesus ever got drunk?

They drank wine routinely, MM, it was a safe drink.
But they sometimes drank a lot of it!
See how much they drank!
John {2:2} And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. {2:3} And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. {2:4} Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. {2:5} His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do [it. ]{

........... and the Baptist got worried about the stories that he heard:-

Matthew {11:18} For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. {11:19} The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.

As for any Muslim you know who does not advocate the persecution and killing of infidels, all I can say is that he is not living in accordance with the scriptures of Islam or following the example of its founder.

Muhammad instructed his warriors to protect Christians that were sheltering nearby...... ask siam for details.


Surrounded by enemy infidels, I guess that Muhammad did indeed advocate death to all enemies of Islam, but times change and so have most Muslim attitudes apart from the extreme ones.

But this is an interesting point that you have made, because I have read Christians on other forums advocating the 'glassing' of Medina and Mecca, and even Iran. And so I must ask you....: What would you do about all those Muslim countries out there? What would be your solution?

[eider]

Abrahamic/Adamic---I suppose " cultural appropriation" might appear different according to different perspectives...and many might feel a degree of attachment to their cultural history.....

Judaism/Islam---There are many similarities between Judaism and Islam....even I was surprised.....More so than between Christianity and Islam IMO....

Example---The example of the Prophet (pbuh) might be interesting----The Prophet was invited to an area called Yathrib which was traumatized with longstanding tribal warfare. He made a deal with the representatives of the region that they would abide by the law if he were to lead them. They agreed.
The city became "Medina" and the Prophet dealt with tribal disputes through law and made a constitution for tribal co-existence (constitution of Medina)---he also explained his policies to both men and women and got the votes/agreement from both groups to be their leader. He also started a mentorship program between the residents of Medina and the immigrants so that both would help each other and socio-cultural clashes and misunderstandings could be avoided. He made peace treaties with the surrounding tribes...and when one such peace treaty was broken and war broke out, he gave amnesty to those who were defeated (the Meccans).
Justice and law can bring peace if the intent to achieve peace is clear and strong.

Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Bahaism ALL stem from the same God, and the same book.

[eider]

His ability to read the Bible does seem a little compromised - perhaps it comes from reading too many books by synchretising theologians.

Says you, who didn't know what Jesus and disciples did in the Temple on the first day of that last week in Jerusalem.
Which caused me to believe that your reading of the bible was/is very compromised.

[eider]

One could say....
Some more of your weird logic.

But you can't answer............. surely weird logic should be a pushover for you? No?

[eider]

You continue to struggle in your confusion. I tend to think you must enjoy doing so.

So why bother posting to me?

[tabibito]

Says you, who didn't know what Jesus and disciples did in the Temple on the first day of that last week in Jerusalem.

Anyone sensible would have ceased subscribing to that little delusion of yours long since.

[Mountain Man]

They drank wine routinely, MM, it was a safe drink.
But they sometimes drank a lot of it!
See how much they drank!
John {2:2} And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. {2:3} And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. {2:4} Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. {2:5} His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do [it. ]{

........... and the Baptist got worried about the stories that he heard:-

Matthew {11:18} For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. {11:19} The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.

There's nothing wrong with drinking alcohol in moderation. It's drinking to excess that the Bible forbids, specifically drunkenness.

And when you say "the Baptist got worried", who are you talking about? That quote from Matthew 11 is Jesus quoting the hypocritical criticism of his opponents. Just because the Pharisees accused Jesus of being a glutton and a drunkard doesn't mean he actually was. Nowhere in scripture do you see an example Jesus or his Apostles becoming inebriated.

Muhammad instructed his warriors to protect Christians that were sheltering nearby...... ask siam for details.


Surrounded by enemy infidels, I guess that Muhammad did indeed advocate death to all enemies of Islam, but times change and so have most Muslim attitudes apart from the extreme ones.

But this is an interesting point that you have made, because I have read Christians on other forums advocating the 'glassing' of Medina and Mecca, and even Iran. And so I must ask you....: What would you do about all those Muslim countries out there? What would be your solution?

A Muslim who devoutly obeys his scriptures and follows the example of Mohammad is no more "extreme" than a Christian who devoutly obeys the Bible and follows the example of Jesus.

As for what we should do about orthodox Muslim countries that strictly enforce Sharia law and kill all who won't submit, that's a good question, and I honestly don't have answer beyond what Jesus commands of us: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." At least that's how we should respond as individuals, but can it be the basis of international policy for a national government? I'm not certain.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Without an investigation? And hanging the bodies in the public square?

Remember, this is the "new and improved" Taliban. That's the whole point - there's no difference between these zealots and the ones who were in power 20 years ago.

I agree the display of dead bodies is horrible but a western ally and recipient of large quantities of western military equipment carries out public executions and limb amputations, although it has put an end to the death penalty for minors.

[rogue06]

Hadith are not "sacred"---that is, everyone acknowledges there are degrees of validity, as well as interpretation of ahadith. Not to mention---there is something obviously wrong if a claim goes against the principles of the Quran...!?....
So far....facts/research prove that punishment for Sodomy was not rigorously enforced in pre-modern Fiqh courts.

Going to try to gaslight everyone with your application of taqiyya?

If a Hadith has been declared sahih (authentic), it is viewed as sacred. The ones I cited from are all sahih. They are not usually regarded as being as important as the qu'ran but are still sacred.

Source: Islamic Sacred Texts

In Islam, there are two main sacred texts: the Quran (also spelled "Koran") and the Hadith (or Hadeeth). These books teach and illustrate Islamic beliefs, values, and practices. They are also important historical documents (especially the Quran), which tell the story of the origins of the Islamic faith.

Source

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Canonization of Islamic scripture

Orthodox Muslims (which includes almost all Muslims) also consider Hadith (the record of the words, actions, and the silent approval of the Islamic prophet Muhammad)^[2] to be divine revelation.

Source

© Copyright Original Source

As it notes, "includes almost all Muslims." There is a very small Islamic cult known as "Submitters" and "Quranists" that adheres to the qu'ran as its only source of religious belief and practice.

Source: Understanding the Hadith: The Sacred Traditions of Islam

...to Muslims the Hadith literature represents the Koran in action, stories of "revelation made concrete in the life of the Prophet." Among the orthodox they are considered as sacred as the Koran itself.

Source

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Sunnah

In Islam, Sunnah (Arabic: سنة, sunnah) are the traditions and practices of the Islamic prophet, Muhammad, that constitute a model for Muslims to follow. The sunnah is what all the Muslims of Muhammad's time evidently saw and followed and passed on to the next generations.^[1] According to classical Islamic theories,^[2] the sunnah are documented by hadith (the verbally transmitted record of the teachings, deeds and sayings, silent permissions or disapprovals of Muhammad), and along with the Quran (the book of Islam), are the divine revelation (Wahy) delivered through Muhammad^[2] that make up the primary sources of Islamic law and belief/theology.

Source

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Sources of wisdom and authority in Islamic sacred texts

...the Qur’an serves as the foundational text of the Islamic faith, enshrining its teachings and beliefs across a gamut of theological, legal, ritual, ethical and eschatological questions. Treated with similar reverence are reports that record the sayings and deeds of the Prophet Muhammad, collected together in a corpus of material referred to as Hadith.

Source

© Copyright Original Source

While not considered as sacred as the qu'ran, the hadith, specifically those regarded as shih, are indeed still regarded as sacred texts.

also....the impact of colonialism cannot be underestimated......

You can try to point at whatever rabbit holes you want in hopes of distracting from the fact that the evidence clearly demonstrates that the qu'ran itself condemns homosexuality and the hadiths proscribed punishments for it including death. And all of this took place many centuries before Colonialism.

So when you read in the sahih hadith of Abu Dawud that if a man if found to have committed sodomy "he will be stoned to death" this wasn't a result of colonialism which wouldn't exist until several hundred years later.

Likewise, when we find in The Umdat as-Salik wa 'Uddat an-Nasik ("Reliance of the Traveler and Tools of the Worshiper"), one of the most highly respected works on Islamic theology and jurisprudence^[1] and based on the teachings of Abu Zakaria Muhiy ad-Din Yahya Ibn Sharaf al-Nawawi (or just Al-Nawawi -- 1233-1277)^[2], that Muhammad said

Kill the one who sodomizes and the one who let it be done to him

And yes I'm aware that the "Traveler" is not regarded as sacred like the qu'ran or the sahih hadith are, it still serves to demonstrate that Muslims were condemning and punishing homosexuals long before there was even the concept of colonialism in spite of your determined efforts to pretend otherwise.





1. Endorsed by both the president of the International Institute of Islamic Thought and the president of the Fiqh Council of North America, as well as Al Azhar Research Academy in Cairo, Egypt, regarded as being the Sunni Islamic world's foremost educational institution.

2. He is still so widely esteemed and revered that Jabhat al-Nusra (a.k.a. al-Qaeda in Syria) demolished his tomb a few years ago because they viewed it as sacrilegious.

[rogue06]

They drank wine routinely, MM, it was a safe drink.
But they sometimes drank a lot of it!
See how much they drank!
John {2:2} And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. {2:3} And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. {2:4} Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. {2:5} His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do [it. ]{

........... and the Baptist got worried about the stories that he heard:-

Matthew {11:18} For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. {11:19} The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.

How do you get "the Baptist got worried about the stories that he heard" from that? That wasn't something John was saying but was instead something being said about him. That's because he didn't drink wine (which is forbidden for a Nazarene or Nazarite such as John) he "hath a devil." Jesus was mocking those that criticized John for not drinking and eating and then turned around and criticized that Jesus would eat and drink.

There is nothing in there at all about "the Baptist got worried about the stories that he heard"

[Cow Poke]

But you can't answer............. surely weird logic should be a pushover for you? No?

You are allowed to have weird logic that doesn't need corrected by me.

[rogue06]

I agree the display of dead bodies is horrible but a western ally and recipient of large quantities of western military equipment carries out public executions and limb amputations, although it has put an end to the death penalty for minors.

Another fresh helping of...



WHATABOUTISM!!!