Taliban Hangs Four Bodies In Public Square in Western Afghanistan

[siam]

Just for accuracy's sake, your article's headline states that nearly 2000 blacks were lynched but you have it has between 2000 to 6000. Moreover, not every black person lynched was racial motivated. The numbers of whites lynched would tend to suggest that a bunch of folks were lynched because they were deemed to be outlaws. This would likely be truer the further back in time you go.

Note, this is not an apology for lynching nor a statement in support of it -- it should go without saying that it was a horrible, unacceptable practice. This is about accuracy.

I am not familiar with U.S. history---so I wrote it this way....
The article mentions that after the civil war, there was some period called "reconstruction" during which 2,000 lynching were "recorded"/known....many were not recorded/known so the numbers are apparently conservative....the rest of the lynching numbers come from after this period to about 1950....at least as I understand it from the article......

In any case...after the civil war...a lawless and traumatized nation turned on its own peoples and attacked/hanged those who were less powerful, less protected, weaker than them.
IMO, .....It did not need to be this way---but turned out this way because those in power--Judges, police, and local leaders were complicit.
In both cases---the U.S. and Afghanistan---we should not forget that war brings trauma and it takes people time to recover......(and yes you are correct...it should not excuse brutality ---neither for Americans or for Afghans......)

[siam]

...

Iranian Shi'ite Law from Quran and Sunni Law from Quran and the Hadiths, these are the laws of Indonesia, most of the Middle Eastern countries, Pakistan, Afghanistan and other places. Just don't go to these countries unless prepared to follow their laws to the letter. Where UK Nationals are contracted to work in these countries, special isolated encampments are established where foreign nationals stay and can follow their own laws. But outside.......... don't bust the laws!

No...not quite
The laws in these countries are hybrid---that is, remnants of colonial laws mixed in with self-designated "Islamic" laws......
For example---the Blasphemy law in Pakistan comes from British colonial law---not from Sharia---though now people ( including Muslims) are claiming it is "Islamic".
Non-Muslim colonized countries also have this problem....In India...apparently laws against homosexuality are remnants of British colonial laws.
(French colonialism has also left its share of bad laws in its colonized territories)

Laws against homosexuality in Muslim-majority countries were first enacted during colonialism---they were then kept on even after colonialsm and their justification comes from Judaism---NOT Quran. This might surprise Muslims also....but the Quran does not specify any action/punishment against homosexuals---though it has suggestions in cases of (heterosexual) adultery. A few hadith do suggest penalties for Sodomy (anal intercourse)---but the actual act needs to have 4 witnesses for it to reach any degree of criminality....and therefore punishment.
In pre-colonial, pre-modern society---the right to privacy was an important right both culturally and legally, and was respected by jurists.

"Starting in the early medieval period, Sharia developed as a sprawling corpus of texts and sources of authority that were often quite independent of the state.
Over the centuries, jurists of Islamic law have reached different decisions about what the tradition mandates in a particular case. Within Sunni Islam, four different schools have agreed to disagree about everything from criminal law to ritual observance. Shia Muslims have their own school of Islamic law.
Take, for instance, Muslim jurists’ approach to anal intercourse between two men. The Quran offers only a general condemnation, with no specific legal consequences. There are some sources in the Hadith – the vast corpus of sayings and actions attributed to the Prophet Muhammad and collected centuries after his death – that are more specific, including condemning those convicted of anal intercourse to death.
Some schools of Islamic law – such as the Shafii school, which is predominant in Brunei – classify sodomy as a type of fornication, which requires the death penalty.
But others, such as the Hanafi school, which was the official school of the Ottoman Empire, prescribe far lighter penalties for this act. The Hanafi school is still one of the most widespread in the Islamic world, including in Turkey, the Balkans, South Asia and Central Asia.
And even in those schools of Islamic law that prescribe the death penalty for anal intercourse, jurists have made the standard of proof so high as to be nearly impossible to meet.
To condemn someone for sodomy requires four male, Muslim witnesses to have had such an intimate view of the act that they could see the genitals of the offenders. All schools of law require this type of evidence to condemn someone for fornication. Needless to say, such proof was exceedingly hard to come by."

https://dornsife.usc.edu/news/storie...nterpretation/

[eider]

You seem to have a very weird sense of "logic".

It sounds like you're justifying the brutality and lack of due process by saying, in effect, "well, at least the trains run on time".

The weird logic is all yours.
US people will still go to work in Islamic countries and that includes Afghanistan.
They will need to abide by the laws of those lands exactly.
And suggestions from anybody which suggests otherwise are simply dangerous.

To recommend compliance is a no-brainer.
Try Romans 13:1........ even Paul had that one sorted.

[eider]

No...not quite
The laws in these countries are hybrid---that is, remnants of colonial laws mixed in with self-designated "Islamic" laws......
For example---the Blasphemy law in Pakistan comes from British colonial law---not from Sharia---though now people ( including Muslims) are claiming it is "Islamic".

It is Islamic, Siam. Such laws originated in the Old Testament which all Abrahamic Faiths took from.
Islam is Abrahamic in origins..... yes?

Non-Muslim colonized countries also have this problem....In India...apparently laws against homosexuality are remnants of British colonial laws.
(French colonialism has also left its share of bad laws in its colonized territories)

Laws against homosexuality in Muslim-majority countries were first enacted during colonialism---they were then kept on even after colonialsm and their justification comes from Judaism---NOT Quran. This might surprise Muslims also....but the Quran does not specify any action/punishment against homosexuals---though it has suggestions in cases of (heterosexual) adultery. A few hadith do suggest penalties for Sodomy (anal intercourse)---but the actual act needs to have 4 witnesses for it to reach any degree of criminality....and therefore punishment.
In pre-colonial, pre-modern society---the right to privacy was an important right both culturally and legally, and was respected by jurists.

As you say, people are focusing upon Islamic law in Islamic countries...... now. And that certainly includes Muslims.
Yes...... When I was a kid my country's legislation outlawed/criminalised homosexuality......
Yes..... Most if not all of Islamic law originated in the Old Testament of the bible. Islam is an Abrahamic Faith, is it not?

Let me show you.........

"Starting in the early medieval period, Sharia developed as a sprawling corpus of texts and sources of authority that were often quite independent of the state.
Over the centuries, jurists of Islamic law have reached different decisions about what the tradition mandates in a particular case. Within Sunni Islam, four different schools have agreed to disagree about everything from criminal law to ritual observance. Shia Muslims have their own school of Islamic law.
Take, for instance, Muslim jurists’ approach to anal intercourse between two men. The Quran offers only a general condemnation, with no specific legal consequences. There are some sources in the Hadith – the vast corpus of sayings and actions attributed to the Prophet Muhammad and collected centuries after his death – that are more specific, including condemning those convicted of anal intercourse to death.
Some schools of Islamic law – such as the Shafii school, which is predominant in Brunei – classify sodomy as a type of fornication, which requires the death penalty.
But others, such as the Hanafi school, which was the official school of the Ottoman Empire, prescribe far lighter penalties for this act. The Hanafi school is still one of the most widespread in the Islamic world, including in Turkey, the Balkans, South Asia and Central Asia.
And even in those schools of Islamic law that prescribe the death penalty for anal intercourse, jurists have made the standard of proof so high as to be nearly impossible to meet.
To condemn someone for sodomy requires four male, Muslim witnesses to have had such an intimate view of the act that they could see the genitals of the offenders. All schools of law require this type of evidence to condemn someone for fornication. Needless to say, such proof was exceedingly hard to come by."

https://dornsife.usc.edu/news/storie...nterpretation/

....... to demonstrate this, the text which you included is all about Islamic law.

Siam, I'm not interested so much in debating the finest origins,so please let me repeat the really important part of my post:-...............

Just don't go to these countries unless prepared to follow their laws to the letter. Where UK Nationals are contracted to work in these countries, special isolated encampments are established where foreign nationals stay and can follow their own laws. But outside.......... don't bust the laws!

[eider]

What about gay foreigners in "strange lands"? Should they refrain from being gay and if not be willing to accept being executed as a result?

Are you imagining that Western Gay-couples go anywhere near Islamic countries and break their laws?

[eider]

For a short and simple contrast I suggest Five Differences between Sharia and Old Testament Law

From the "Assessment":

Christians who condemn ISIS-style beheadings, sexual exploitation of women, and oppression of religious minorities are not being hypocrites, for the similarities between the Law of Moses and the Law of Muhammad are superficial

I can suggest several differences between Christians' Laws and Old Testament Laws, but just look at how Christians pick and choose from the Laws of Moses.
Some Christians support execution of practising Gays, I have read, on another Christian Forum.

[eider]

Yes, I said that.

A) I was not yet on the planet
2) Absolutely, I condemn such hatred and murder, loudly and clearly

None of that excuses what is happening in Afghanistan today.

The above was sent to another member.

Many countries do practice Islamic law......... So what do you suggest about, say, Afghanistan?
Do you want another Crusade or something?

Muslims have been beating down Crusades for several hundreds of years now.
Look at the great building placed upon the foundations of the Great Temple, Jerusalem.

[Cow Poke]

.....In any case...after the civil war...a lawless and traumatized nation turned on its own peoples and attacked/hanged those who were less powerful, less protected, weaker than them.....

No, it was not "the nation".

[Cow Poke]

The weird logic is all yours.

Nope.

US people will still go to work in Islamic countries and that includes Afghanistan.
They will need to abide by the laws of those lands exactly.
And suggestions from anybody which suggests otherwise are simply dangerous.

Nobody suggested any such thing - this is part of your weird logic.

To recommend compliance is a no-brainer.
Try Romans 13:1........ even Paul had that one sorted.

It is not obedience to the harsh laws I'm contesting - it's the psychotic need of the Taliban to control the people through brutality, fear and intimidation.
You have weird logic.

[Cow Poke]

The above was sent to another member.

Many countries do practice Islamic law......... So what do you suggest about, say, Afghanistan?
Do you want another Crusade or something?

More of your really weird logic?

Muslims have been beating down Crusades for several hundreds of years now.
Look at the great building placed upon the foundations of the Great Temple, Jerusalem.

Yes, Islam is evil. Especially carried to its extreme.

[Cow Poke]

In any case...after the civil war...a lawless and traumatized nation turned on its own peoples and attacked/hanged those who were less powerful, less protected, weaker than them.

Congratulations - this sounds like a description of Afghanistan.

[rogue06]

No...not quite
The laws in these countries are hybrid---that is, remnants of colonial laws mixed in with self-designated "Islamic" laws......
For example---the Blasphemy law in Pakistan comes from British colonial law---not from Sharia---though now people ( including Muslims) are claiming it is "Islamic".
Non-Muslim colonized countries also have this problem....In India...apparently laws against homosexuality are remnants of British colonial laws.
(French colonialism has also left its share of bad laws in its colonized territories)

Laws against homosexuality in Muslim-majority countries were first enacted during colonialism---they were then kept on even after colonialsm and their justification comes from Judaism---NOT Quran. This might surprise Muslims also....but the Quran does not specify any action/punishment against homosexuals---though it has suggestions in cases of (heterosexual) adultery. A few hadith do suggest penalties for Sodomy (anal intercourse)---but the actual act needs to have 4 witnesses for it to reach any degree of criminality....and therefore punishment.
In pre-colonial, pre-modern society---the right to privacy was an important right both culturally and legally, and was respected by jurists.

"Starting in the early medieval period, Sharia developed as a sprawling corpus of texts and sources of authority that were often quite independent of the state.
Over the centuries, jurists of Islamic law have reached different decisions about what the tradition mandates in a particular case. Within Sunni Islam, four different schools have agreed to disagree about everything from criminal law to ritual observance. Shia Muslims have their own school of Islamic law.
Take, for instance, Muslim jurists’ approach to anal intercourse between two men. The Quran offers only a general condemnation, with no specific legal consequences. There are some sources in the Hadith – the vast corpus of sayings and actions attributed to the Prophet Muhammad and collected centuries after his death – that are more specific, including condemning those convicted of anal intercourse to death.
Some schools of Islamic law – such as the Shafii school, which is predominant in Brunei – classify sodomy as a type of fornication, which requires the death penalty.
But others, such as the Hanafi school, which was the official school of the Ottoman Empire, prescribe far lighter penalties for this act. The Hanafi school is still one of the most widespread in the Islamic world, including in Turkey, the Balkans, South Asia and Central Asia.
And even in those schools of Islamic law that prescribe the death penalty for anal intercourse, jurists have made the standard of proof so high as to be nearly impossible to meet.
To condemn someone for sodomy requires four male, Muslim witnesses to have had such an intimate view of the act that they could see the genitals of the offenders. All schools of law require this type of evidence to condemn someone for fornication. Needless to say, such proof was exceedingly hard to come by."

https://dornsife.usc.edu/news/storie...nterpretation/

The qu'ran describes homosexuality as a sin but does not proscribe any specific punishment. Surat Al-'A`rāf (7:80-81):

And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds?

Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."

That was the Shih International translations. Others are more blunt

“And (remember) Lut (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)? Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)’”

There is also Surat Ash-Shu`arā' (26:165-6)

"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males and leave those (women) whom Allah has created for you to be your wives? Without any doubt, you are a people who have transgressed (the limits imposed by Allah).

There are a number of similar passages.

We find the punishment, the death penalty, in the Hadiths which were written centuries before colonialism.

For example, al-Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud and Ibn Maajah all narrated that Ibn 'Abbaas said:

"The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”"

The Hadiths Abu Dawud and al-Tirmidhi also state that

"If a man comes upon a man, then they are both adulterers; If a woman comes upon a woman, they are both adulteresses."

Adulterers are typically stoned to death.

And in al-Tirmidhi you'll find the declaration from Muhammad himself that

There is nothing I fear more for my Ummah [the Muslim community globally] than the deed of the people of the Prophet Lot (pbuh) [i.e., Homosexuality].’’

Different methods of execution were used, including stoning, throwing the person of a minaret (favored in Iran today) and in Afghanistan in the 1990s, the Taliban would be place the victim in a pit and then topple a large stone wall on top of him. I'm sure the Taliban of Afghanistan adopted that from the brits

The fact is, as I noted, that Islam has prescribed the death penalty (and some other punishments like flogging) for homosexuals and lesbians all on their own and many centuries before Colonialism or even the Crusades.

[rogue06]

Are you imagining that Western Gay-couples go anywhere near Islamic countries and break their laws?

Perhaps you should look up all of the stories about Western gays being arrested in Muslim countries for homosexuality before spouting ignorance. For instance.

[Mountain Man]

Yes, Islam is evil. Especially carried to its extreme.

If it's not "extreme", then it's not Islam.

Its sort of like saying that a Christian who doesn't get drunk and is not sexually promiscuous is an "extreme Christian" when it's actually among the basic tenants of our religion. Which is to say that any Muslim who persecutes and kills infidels is not extreme but merely orthodox.

[rogue06]

The above was sent to another member.

Many countries do practice Islamic law......... So what do you suggest about, say, Afghanistan?
Do you want another Crusade or something?

Muslims have been beating down Crusades for several hundreds of years now.
Look at the great building placed upon the foundations of the Great Temple, Jerusalem.

Up until the 19th cent. Arab historians regarded the Crusades as merely a minor irritant and was celebrated as a victory. The Crusades (which I should add was defensive in nature) were viewed as being nothing more than yet one more barbarian incursion and certainly not nearly as serious a threat as the Mongols were to prove in the 13^th and 14^th centuries. IOW, Muslims didn’t regard the Crusades as something separate and distinctive, nor did they single out the Crusades from a long series of infidel enemies whom from time to time they fought.,

But then many Western historians began to extoll the Crusades as being Europe’s first colonial venture, and by the 20^th century, when Imperialism was discredited in the West and hated in the countries that were former colonies, so too were the Crusades.