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Impeachment #2: The Unity Impeachment

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    So what do you expect this to accomplish. ANYBODY from either side is gonna sit back and say, "huh, well, look at that, I was wrong all along"?

    All it's going to do is drive the wedge even deeper and keep pouring fuel on the fire.


    They aren’t calling for unity, they are calling for amnesia. For everyone to shrug and forget it all happened. What happened to being the party of personal responsibility?

    Looks like Biden might go with unifying the country around 'Liberty and Justice for all.'

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by EvoUK View Post



      They aren’t calling for unity, they are calling for amnesia. For everyone to shrug and forget it all happened. What happened to being the party of personal responsibility?

      Looks like Biden might go with unifying the country around 'Liberty and Justice for all.'
      When do you expect high profile Democrats will be held accountable for their behavior over the past four years where they openly encouraged and approved of the violence being committed by the likes of Antifa and Black Lives Matter?
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        As there is no evidence to suggest he did lose the election due to fraud ...
        But there is evidence of fraud. You choose to dismiss it.

        we must conclude that either he is lying or he is delusional, or he is both.

        Lying comes as naturally to Trump as breathing. How many Pinocchio's did the WP award him over the last four years?
        I have no idea what you are referring to. And is probably irrelevant to this topic.

        It runs to tens of thousands. He lied over this election to appeal to his base and its belief that its freedoms and democracy are in danger of being stolen. Lies he and others have been peddling for years.
        Your opinion. Trump feels the election was corrupt and I agree with him. And if he believes this then he is not lying when he says so. And expressing this belief is not incitement to insurrection, nor is prosecuting him for it going to unify anyone.

        Why not? Using your example of the question as to whether a client deliberately invoked violence the similarity stands. I do not think you will find anything in Nazi official propaganda or in Hitler's speeches where the precise words "Kill the Jews" are employed.
        Hitler ruled a country that systematically killed Jews. Either he was in charge or he wasn't. It doesn't matter what he said in "official propaganda."

        Although I am happy to be proven wrong. It was more subtle, as was Trump.

        He would be only a few months older than was Biden when he won the Presidency.
        And Biden is going senile.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Ronson View Post

          But there is evidence of fraud. You choose to dismiss it.
          Not enough to overturn the result.


          Originally posted by Ronson View Post
          I have no idea what you are referring to. And is probably irrelevant to this topic.
          Trump regularly lies. Fact.


          Originally posted by Ronson View Post
          Your opinion. Trump feels the election was corrupt and I agree with him.
          You and the moon landing conspiracist are entitled to your beliefs but without evidence to support those beliefs they remain irrelevant and delusional.

          Originally posted by Ronson View Post
          And if he believes this then he is not lying when he says so.
          How do you know he believes it?

          Originally posted by Ronson View Post
          And expressing this belief is not incitement to insurrection, nor is prosecuting him for it going to unify anyone.
          This claim the election was stolen was the culmination of months of lies, innuendo and subtle provocation.

          Originally posted by Ronson View Post

          Hitler ruled a country that systematically killed Jews.
          Not in 1933. The systematic slaughter of Jews did not really get underway until after 1941 and Operation Barbarossa. Hence the Wannsee Conference in January 1942.

          Originally posted by Ronson View Post
          Either he was in charge or he wasn't. It doesn't matter what he said in "official propaganda."
          Using your analogy it does. Nowhere did "my client" precisely urge [either in writing or in words] that people should go and Kill the Jews.


          Originally posted by Ronson View Post
          And Biden is going senile.
          I think Trump got there first. Like father like son.
          "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            Not enough to overturn the result.
            So your inference is that you accept there is evidence of fraud, but not enough to overturn the election. Then what is the best way to make that determination? Do you think an investigation is in order? Or just accuse people who believe there is/may be enough fraud of being liars and delusional?

            Trump regularly lies. Fact.

            You and the moon landing conspiracist are entitled to your beliefs but without evidence to support those beliefs they remain irrelevant and delusional.
            My belief is based on evidence.

            How do you know he believes it?
            Without crawling inside of his head, no one can know for sure.

            It's probably more a matter of certainty (percentage of conviction) than a binary answer anyway.

            Not in 1933. The systematic slaughter of Jews did not really get underway until after 1941 and Operation Barbarossa. Hence the Wannsee Conference in January 1942.

            Using your analogy it does. Nowhere did "my client" precisely urge [either in writing or in words] that people should go and Kill the Jews.
            The "people" didn't kill Jews - the government did, and Hitler was in charge of the government. So again, not comparable.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Ronson View Post
              If Trump believes he lost due to fraud, there is no "lie" involved.
              I'm not sure insanity is a valid defense in the case of impeachment.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                Because it's putting the verdict before the trial.
                No, it is accurately naming the crime.

                The right wingers included in that Jan 6 attack included many belonging to right wing groups seeking to invalidate an election they could not reverse through legal means, demolish the federal government and install Trump as leader-for-life. Yes, that qualifies as an insurrection, and it was clearly incited by Trump.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by kccd View Post

                  No, it is accurately naming the crime.

                  The right wingers included in that Jan 6 attack included many belonging to right wing groups seeking to invalidate an election they could not reverse through legal means, demolish the federal government and install Trump as leader-for-life.
                  Oh man, that's a good one! Is that the CNN/NYT line or did you make that one up?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by EvoUK View Post

                    Looks like Biden might go with unifying the country around 'Liberty and Justice for all.'

                    Only a fool would think that would lead to unity.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                      So your inference is that you accept there is evidence of fraud, but not enough to overturn the election.
                      That is what I heard a talking head say on some US news channel. That there was always some fraud in any election but not enough to alter the vote in four states.

                      Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                      Then what is the best way to make that determination? Do you think an investigation is in order?
                      An investigation into how the USA runs elections? Yes, an investigation into gerrymandering and elector rolls and why some people get removed or disqualified, particularly if they are persons of colour and/or are likely to vote Democrat.


                      Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                      My belief is based on evidence.
                      What evidence have you got that Guiliani did not have and that numerous courts could not determine?


                      Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                      The "people" didn't kill Jews - the government did, and Hitler was in charge of the government. So again, not comparable.
                      What was Trump on January 6th? A private citizen?
                      "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        That is what I heard a talking head say on some US news channel. That there was always some fraud in any election but not enough to alter the vote in four states.
                        That would be determined via an investigation. The election results are done, possession is 9-10ths of the law and Biden is in, so I am not seeking any change in that. But it needs to be corrected so it never happens again. The system is faulty if any amount of fraud can take place.

                        An investigation into how the USA runs elections? Yes, an investigation into gerrymandering and elector rolls and why some people get removed or disqualified, particularly if they are persons of colour and/or are likely to vote Democrat.
                        This sounds like a CNN/NYT talking point. Do you have a link?

                        What evidence have you got that Guiliani did not have and that numerous courts could not determine?
                        I have no way to compare since I don't know what Giuliani has. But I have watched POTUS election coverage since 1976 and I've never seen anything like the irregularities of 2020. They are without precedent.

                        What was Trump on January 6th? A private citizen?
                        Non sequitur, since the American government wasn't systemically killing people. There is simply no way you are going to compare Trump to Hitler. But you're welcome to keep trying.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                          That would be determined via an investigation. The election results are done, possession is 9-10ths of the law and Biden is in, so I am not seeking any change in that. But it needs to be corrected so it never happens again. The system is faulty if any amount of fraud can take place.
                          Do you worry about Libertarian or Republican voters committing fraud?



                          Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                          This sounds like a CNN/NYT talking point. Do you have a link?
                          No it is all my own.


                          Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                          I have no way to compare since I don't know what Giuliani has. But I have watched POTUS election coverage since 1976 and I've never seen anything like the irregularities of 2020. They are without precedent.
                          On what evidence? Were you present at every single polling station across the entire nation and every single count?

                          Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                          Non sequitur, since the American government wasn't systemically killing people. There is simply no way you are going to compare Trump to Hitler. But you're welcome to keep trying.
                          I am not trying to compare the two. You raised the issue of "my client". An individual is not a government.
                          "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            Do you worry about Libertarian or Republican voters committing fraud?
                            Innuendo that I'm dishonest? Do you worry about dishonesty from your party?

                            No it is all my own.
                            At least you're honestly making points out of thin air.

                            On what evidence?
                            https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...94#post1223294

                            Were you present at every single polling station across the entire nation and every single count?
                            I never suggested I was.

                            I am not trying to compare the two. You raised the issue of "my client". An individual is not a government.
                            The head of a corporation is responsible for the policies of that corporation. The head of a government is responsible for the policies of that government. Trump is not responsible for the hare-brained interpretations of some citizens, just as Pelosi is not responsible for the actions of some citizen rioters last summer. Neither called for an insurrection. They vented, and some idiots took it to extremes.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                              Innuendo that I'm dishonest? Do you worry about dishonesty from your party?
                              I am simply asking if your concerns about dishonesty and illegal/fraudulent voting extends to those who vote Republican or Libertarian. Or are you only worried about fraudulent Democrat votes?

                              Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                              At least you're honestly making points out of thin air.
                              https://www.americanprogress.org/iss...voting-rights/
                              https://aldianews.com/articles/polit...torney-general
                              https://www.latimes.com/politics/sto...isement-pastor
                              https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-libe...ssion-in-2020/

                              Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                              "Pulling ballots out of suitcases hidden under floor-length tablecloths. Irregularities like stopping counting from rural districts for 12 hours for reasons never stated. Blocking windows from viewers. Waiting for observers to go home before restarting ballot counting. Those sorts of things."
                              https://countercurrents.org/2020/12/...team-deception
                              https://www.cbsnews.com/news/preside...ries-debunked/
                              https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tr...en-vote-dumps/

                              Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                              The head of a corporation is responsible for the policies of that corporation. The head of a government is responsible for the policies of that government. Trump is not responsible for the hare-brained interpretations of some citizens, just as Pelosi is not responsible for the actions of some citizen rioters last summer. Neither called for an insurrection.
                              Pelosi has not had the platform given Trump over the last four years. Nor has she peddled lies as he has done. I think [to use a phrase] you are attempting to defend the indefensible and I can see our exchanges just going around and around that point.

                              Let us wait and see what the second impeachment may bring forth. I suspect that 17 Republicans will not vote to impeach him but the proceedings may bring to light hitherto unknown information.
                              "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                I am simply asking if your concerns about dishonesty and illegal/fraudulent voting extends to those who vote Republican or Libertarian. Or are you only worried about fraudulent Democrat votes?
                                I answered that. It was a smarmy question.

                                (four links submitted)

                                Of those links, there is a lot of speculation and little in the way of statistics. But thanks for linking to your argument.

                                (three more links)

                                I will submit the following:

                                Lefty Stephanopoulos: "Sen. Paul, let me begin with a threshold question for you. This election was not stolen, do you accept that fact?"

                                Rand Paul: "The debate over whether or not there was fraud should occur, we never had any presentation in court where we actually looked at the evidence. Most of the cases were thrown out for lack of standing, which is a procedural way of not actually hearing the question."

                                ...

                                Rand Paul: "There were lots of problems and there were secretaries of state, who illegally changed the law and that needs to be fixed, and I'm going to work harder to fix it and I will not be cowed by people say, 'oh, you're a liar,'"

                                Rand Paul: “You're forgetting who you are as a journalist if you think there's only one side."


                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vub26OEWyV8

                                Pelosi has not had the platform given Trump over the last four years.
                                She's had plenty. Her Twitter and Facebook accounts are still active.

                                Nor has she peddled lies as he has done. I think [to use a phrase] you are attempting to defend the indefensible and I can see our exchanges just going around and around that point.
                                I agree. You are comparing apples and oranges and there is no resolution to that.

                                Let us wait and see what the second impeachment may bring forth. I suspect that 17 Republicans will not vote to impeach him but the proceedings may bring to light hitherto unknown information.

                                Comment

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