Riots in DC outside capitol building

[CivilDiscourse]

I want to be clear on how I characterize this. This is mostly a protest. It is not generally speaking unruly, but people have entered the capitol.

Trespassing, but mostly peaceful protest at capitol.

[seer]

Of course, senators in Puerto Rico would almost certainly be neither Republican nor Democrat. The PPD and PNP have been the two major parties of Puerto Rico for decades, so it's hard to believe they'd simply disappear upon statehood. What I think will happen is that we will see one of the parties strongly align themselves with the Republicans and the other with the Democrats, meaning people elected to the House/Senate in Puerto Rico would effectively be Democrats and Republicans (and caucus accordingly), but would be elected as members of the PPD/PNP.

As far as I can tell both parties are left wing. In any case I'm not willing to take the chance. We don't need more states or left wing politicians.

[CivilDiscourse]

For those wanting to continue the protest for trump.


How to protest safely.
What to wear:
Nondescript, solid color, layered clothing, cover identifying tattoos
Google and mask.
Emergency Contacts written down
Heat Resistant Gloves
Tie your hair up.

What to bring:
Water for drinking & tear Gas
Snacks
Cash/Change & ID
Washcloth
Bandages & First Aid Supplies
Ear Plugs
Protest signs

Don't Bring:
Cell phone without first turning off face/touch ID, going on Airplane mode, disabling data.
Jewelry
Anything you don't want to be arrested with.
Contact Lenses.

[Reepicheep]

A protestor inside the Senate chamber.

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The gentleman who thought it was a good idea to sit in Mike Pence's chair has released a statement:

"I sincerely apologize to the American people. I recognize my actions that have brought shame upon myself, my family, my friends, and my beautiful country. In the moment I thought I was doing the right thing. I realize now that my actions were inappropriate and I beg for forgiveness from America and my home state of Idaho.: - Josiah Colt

It is interesting to compare his comments after the fact to his comments before and during the riot. Shortly after sitting in Pence's chair, he was recorded in a video saying the following (my comment in red):

"I just got in, I just got into the Capitol Building. I was the first one, I hopped down into the chamber and I was the first one to sit in Nancy Pelosi's chair (SIC, it was the VP's chair), that b----, she's a traitor, she's treasonous,"

The following article from an Idaho news source goes into great detail about Colt's actions before, during, and after the riot. Definitely worth a read. I suspect Colt's life is about to take a turn for the worse.

*********

'It's about to go down': Meridian man brags about joining riot at U.S. Capitol

https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/cr...8-6339b76f51c0

[Reepicheep]

The gentleman who thought it was a good idea to sit in Mike Pence's chair has released a statement:

"I sincerely apologize to the American people. I recognize my actions that have brought shame upon myself, my family, my friends, and my beautiful country. In the moment I thought I was doing the right thing. I realize now that my actions were inappropriate and I beg for forgiveness from America and my home state of Idaho.: - Josiah Colt

I just stumbled upon Colt's complete statement:

"I love America, I love the people, I didn't hurt anyone and I didn't cause any damage in the Chamber. I got caught up in the moment and when I saw the door to to the Chamber open, I walked in, hopped down, and sat on the chair. I said my peace then I helped a gentleman get to safety that was injured then left.

"While in the Chamber I told the other protesters that this is a sacred place and not to do any damage. Some of them wanted to trash the place and steal stuff but I told them not to and to leave everything in its place. We're still on sacred ground.

"I sincerely apologize to the American people. I recognize my actions that have brought shame upon myself, my family, my friends, and my beautiful country. In the moment I thought I was doing the right thing. I realize now that my actions were inappropriate and I beg for forgiveness from America and my home state of Idaho.

"My intention wasn't to put a stain on our great Country's Democratic process."

[casaba]

Simple; it is normal behavior and will continue for the foreseeable future. For a historical parallel, I'm thinking of the street battles between the Nazis and Communists in 1920's Germany.

Sorry, but 'normal' doesn't mean much to me there. I'd like to ask again about your original post, maybe rewording my response will make it more clear what I am asking:

In my case, I have simply come to recognize that violence as a means to promote political agendas is now viewed as legitimate in the US by ALL parties and condemning it is now pointless and useless.

Could you imagine a political agenda for which you believe resorting to violence could be seen as legitimate?
Similarly, could you imagine a political agenda for which you believe resorting to violence could not be seen as legitimate?

You seem to be stating that if one finds violence to be legitimate in one instance that they must find it to be legitimate in all instances. Surely that is not what you believe?

[CivilDiscourse]

Sorry, but 'normal' doesn't mean much to me there. I'd like to ask again about your original post, maybe rewording my response will make it more clear what I am asking:



Could you imagine a political agenda for which you believe resorting to violence could be seen as legitimate?
Similarly, could you imagine a political agenda for which you believe resorting to violence could not be seen as legitimate?

You seem to be stating that if one finds violence to be legitimate in one instance that they must find it to be legitimate in all instances. Surely that is not what you believe?

See the overton window. Apply that to tactics, and that's what is being talked about.

The Overton window is the range of policies politically acceptable to the mainstream population at a given time.^[1] It is also known as the window of discourse. The term is named after Joseph P. Overton, who stated that an idea's political viability depends mainly on whether it falls within this range, rather than on politicians' individual preferences.^[2][3] According to Overton, the window frames the range of policies that a politician can recommend without appearing too extreme to gain or keep public office given the climate of public opinion at that time.

[oxmixmudd]

An interesting follow on to this from WPO



Now the previous defense secretary Mark Esper was one of those Trump recently suddenly fired (11/2020) and replaced with someone completely unqualified but loyal to him above all else.

And now consider this. My governor, governor Hogan, a republican, was called directly by a senator from Maryland in as they were hunkered down in whatever undisclosed location they were moved to and asked him to send in the Maryland national Guard. But it is a requirement that for DC the secretary of defense authorize any such deployment. Hogan immediately tried to call and get said authorization and was refused for over an hour and a half. Finally he received a call from a commander in the army - NOT the secretary of defense - begging for him to send the guard down and hogan took that commander's request as authorization and sent them in.

There is no doubt in my mind Trump told his ace in the hole secretary of defense he replaced Esper with to not only incapacitate the DC national guard, but to ignore calls from other governors wrt sending their own national guard in to help out.

This was a horrendous act by Donald Trump.

http://"Maryland governor 'repeatedly' tried to deploy National Guard in DC - Business Insider" https://www.businessinsider.com/maryland-governor-repeatedly-tried-to-deploy-national-guard-in-dc-2021-1?amp

[firstfloor]

Trump has been willing to agitate his base as long as he could make money doing it. He has run into the buffers but will probably go on for years to come falsely claiming that his re-election was stolen.

[casaba]

See the overton window. Apply that to tactics, and that's what is being talked about.

The Overton window is the range of policies politically acceptable to the mainstream population at a given time.^[1] It is also known as the window of discourse. The term is named after Joseph P. Overton, who stated that an idea's political viability depends mainly on whether it falls within this range, rather than on politicians' individual preferences.^[2][3] According to Overton, the window frames the range of policies that a politician can recommend without appearing too extreme to gain or keep public office given the climate of public opinion at that time.

Thanks for that. Not a term I was familiar with. It was good to see Noam Chomsky quoted. As is often the case, hearing him explain something often leads to moment of clarity.

Now that said, I do not see how it can be carried over from policy to tactics. The acceptability of a specific policy can be judged based on its own merits. The acceptability of a specific tactic, on the other hand, is largely dependent upon the case to which the tactic is being applied.

So, while I thank you for enlightening me on this concept, I believe it would be invalid to apply this to the discussion at hand.

[CivilDiscourse]

Thanks for that. Not a term I was familiar with. It was good to see Noam Chomsky quoted. As is often the case, hearing him explain something often leads to moment of clarity.

Now that said, I do not see how it can be carried over from policy to tactics. The acceptability of a specific policy can be judged based on its own merits. The acceptability of a specific tactic, on the other hand, is largely dependent upon the case to which the tactic is being applied.

So, while I thank you for enlightening me on this concept, I believe it would be invalid to apply this to the discussion at hand.

Not really. It's not hard to see the concept being applied. All it takes is for a tactic to be used repeatedly, be effective, and either be encouraged, or at best weakly denounced. After all, ideas and tactics are strongly correlated.

[oxmixmudd]

Trump has been willing to agitate his base as long as he could make money doing it. He has run into the buffers but will probably go on for years to come falsely claiming that his re-election was stolen.

A couple of 'good news' items. Even though law enforcement and congress has been somewhat slow to act punitively- a very much biased response in that most of these insurrectionists were white ( consider the fact that in 2017 a peaceful protest in the capitol rotunda of black clergy - including the newly elected warnock - were arrested while simply singing and praying in the rotunda - or the massive security response to the recent BLM event in DC -while these violent people who caused 5 deaths and physical damage to the building were allowed to walk away ), businesses have taken action. Many of those identified in video and pictures have been fired by their employers. And today. Howleys book publisher canceled his book deal - A fitting response to a traitor, though not nearly severe enough.

http://Sen. Josh Hawley's book canceled by publisher citing 'deadly insurrection' at Capitol building https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/media/josh-hawley-book-canceled/index.html

Further, the strong internet presence of these fools Trump conned into storming the Capitol (clearly Trump supporters and NOT antifa ) is making it very, very easy to identify them.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/nation...-20210108.html

EtA: I do NOT condone violence in any form as a means of protest, whether the cause of the protest be just or unjust, whether the protestors committing the violence be black, white, or anything in- between.

[Sparko]

Ah, how things have changed since this summer.

ha. yeah. Last summer a couple of cops = all cops! Defund the Police!!!

[NorrinRadd]

A couple of 'good news' items. ... And today. Howleys book publisher canceled his book deal - A fitting response to a traitor, though not nearly severe enough. ...

You really are a • Edited by a Moderator •.

[oxmixmudd]

• Edited by a Moderator •

I'm sorry the Truth is so abhorrent to you norrin. But I am glad to see that participants in an insurrection at the Capitol are losing their jobs and that the fool willing to raise his fist in solidarity to the insurrectionists and continue the farcical contention of some violation by Pa during the election after the storming of the capital has lost his book deal - at the very least.

That is as it should be. Many of them will also find themselves facing federal criminal charges, and some will spend time behind bars - which, again, is as it should be. I do hope restraint will be used and that those that stayed outside and expressed shock at what was happening at the time will not suffer just for having been in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Perhaps also then the rest of you spurred on by the misinformation and lies put forward by this man and the media sources that support him will realize it is in your own best interests to lay down your petty biases and actually take the time to verify what is true and what is false before you scurry off to commit rash actions that endanger your own lives and the lives of others, or that undermine the peaceful workings of the government of the best and most powerful hope for freedom in the world today.

Maybe you could start by amending your response to the ever-growing pandemic to match that reflecting real science and concern for those around you rather than the sorts of brain dead and dangerous practices spurred on by ignorance and misinformation?

BTW. You do realize that some of those unmasked fools ( or perhaps someone they hold dear ) expressing their misguided loyalty to Trump will face a death sentence due to the ensuing superspreader event and close contact with those participating that had covid at the time. There were thousands there. And there is a new and significantly more contagious variety out there. And right now more than 1 in 100 diagnosed die.

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