Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Gary]

Talk about circular reasoning. Saying that miracles are impossible because miracles are impossible doesn't prove anything.

Where did I say that miracles are impossible?

What I said is that miracles are IMPROBABLE. Big difference, Wormy.

[Christianbookworm]

Can someone pull the lever on the fundy atheist canard see and say again? Maybe it will stop on the super secret surprise place! Where gary will come up with an original canard that none of us have heard before. If he does that, I'll give him a super secret surprise reward for originality!

[Christianbookworm]

Where did I say that miracles are impossible?

What I said is that miracles are IMPROBABLE. Big difference, Wormy.

I don't go looking around and claiming every little coincidence is a miracle either. You just seem to assume that the probability of a miracle is near nil, when one can't assign probabilities to the actions of God.

[Gary]

I'll outline a ridiculously over-the-top scenario. In doing so I am running the risk of having you misunderstand the intent, and giving you the opportunity to misrepresent what I am saying. Nonetheless, I will outline the scenario anyway.

Asan is a casual observer with prior satisfactory evidence that miracles occur.
Bsan is also a casual observer, but with no prior satisfactory evidence that miracles occur.

They see someone raise his hand and point at another person.

Consider three possible courses that events may take.

The person who raised his finger says:

1/ "People like you should be struck by lightning." The person he is pointing at is immediately struck by lightning.

2/ "summon lightning." The person he is pointing at is immediately struck by lightning.

3/ "summon lightning." The speaker is hit by lightning and suffers no harm, and he shifts his hand slightly. The lightning travels through to his outstretched hand from whence it streams out to strike the ground at the other person's feet.

option 1/ would leave neither Asan nor Bsan with reason to believe the strike was anything but coincidence.
option 2/ would give Asan justification for declaring witness to a miracle, but not Bsan - Bsan would only have strong cause to believe the possibility of miracles.
option 3/ would give both justification for declaring witness to a miracle.

Here's the thing Tabby: I can't prove that miracles do not happen and you cannot prove that they do. Period.

When a very odd, unheard of event occurs, you and I both will base our analysis of the event upon our world view. I will look at this event and say, "It was probably a very rare, but natural phenomenon" where as you might say, "the most probable explanation is that God did it". Who is right? Answer: We don't know.

But if we look at statistics for cancer survival, death rates, disease incidence between certain groups of people we see something very odd: There is no statistical difference in cancer rates, disease rates, or cure rates among Christians vs. non-Christians, nor among theists vs. atheists. So prayers to Jesus are no more effective than prayers to Allah, and prayers to any god are no more effective than no prayers to no gods.

Miracles may very well happen, but they are not evidence for the divinity of Jesus, the veracity of the Bible, the historicity of the Resurrection, nor of the existence of any deity.

[Gary]

Can someone pull the lever on the fundy atheist canard see and say again? Maybe it will stop on the super secret surprise place! Where gary will come up with an original canard that none of us have heard before. If he does that, I'll give him a super secret surprise reward for originality!

I have nothing new to surprise you with, Wormy. Every discrepancy, contradiction, and error in your ancient book of superstitions has been pointed out to Christians for 2,000 years, and for 2,000 years believers in these ancient superstitions have concocted the most contorted of "harmonizations" to justify continued belief in ghost-impregnated, man-god conceiving virgins and reanimated, broiled-fish-eating, into-outer-space levitating dead Jewish prophets.

[Christianbookworm]

I have nothing new to surprise you with, Wormy. Every discrepancy, contradiction, and error in your ancient book of superstitions has been pointed out to Christians for 2,000 years, and for 2,000 years believers in these ancient superstitions have concocted the most contorted of "harmonizations" to justify continued belief in ghost-impregnated virgins and reanimated, broiled-fish-eating, into-outer-space levitating dead Jewish prophets.

Okay. I guess you won't complain about God giving a guy a death threat.

[Gary]

I don't go looking around and claiming every little coincidence is a miracle either. You just seem to assume that the probability of a miracle is near nil, when one can't assign probabilities to the actions of God.

You are correct, although I can assign probabilities to things like virgin births and reanimations of dead bodies. Both of these alleged events are extremely, extremely, extremely rare or non-existent. I cannot prove they are non-existent, but since they are so improbable, I can choose to not pay any more attention to such claims than I would claims of visitations to earth by green, antennaed Martians.

[Christianbookworm]

You are correct, although I can assign probabilities to things like virgin births and reanimations of dead bodies. Both of these alleged events are extremely, extremely, extremely rare or non-existent. I cannot prove they are non-existent, but since they are so improbable, I can choose not pay any more attention to such claims than I would claims of visitations to earth by green, antennaed Martians.

Not paying any attention should mean not paying attention to those who believe it either. If you think we Christians are crazy for our beliefs, why not just leave us alone and go join some atheistic/agnostic forum where you can talk all you like about your views of life, the universe, and everything. I don't haunt atheist forums or make fun of people who believe in aliens on alien belief forums, so why do you like trolling here? Do you enjoy me comparing your points to a baby toy?

[tabibito]

Here's the thing Tabby: I can't prove that miracles do not happen and you cannot prove that they do. Period.

When a very odd, unheard of event occurs, you and I both will base our analysis of the event upon our world view. I will look at this event and say, "It was probably a very rare, but natural phenomenon" where as you might say, "the most probable explanation is that God did it". Who is right? Answer: We don't know.

In the prior example, it would be wholly unreasonable for Asan and Bsan to ascribe the third sequence of events to anything but a miracle.

Using your "everyone knows" principle, the fact is that lightning will be almost certain to kill anyone that it strikes. And the "science demonstrates" principle shows that lightning won't pass through air when it has a better path to ground e.g. a human body. Anyone witnessing an event of equivalent certainty and walking away believing there is a natural explanation for it would rightly be considered a complete idiot or insane.

Insofar as an equivalent event providing proof of the existence of a particular deity, you would be correct: the only source of information in that regard would be the person who pointed the finger.

[Gary]

Not paying any attention should mean not paying attention to those who believe it either. If you think we Christians are crazy for our beliefs, why not just leave us alone and go join some atheistic/agnostic forum where you can talk all you like about your views of life, the universe, and everything. I don't haunt atheist forums or make fun of people who believe in aliens on alien belief forums, so why do you like trolling here? Do you enjoy me comparing your points to a baby toy?

I am a messenger of truth, exposing the evils of supernaturalism.

I was invited here by Nick. If Nick or the moderators of TW ask me to leave, I will leave. Until then, you are stuck with me.

[Gary]

Okay. I guess you won't complain about God giving a guy a death threat.

Please clarify.

[Christianbookworm]

Please clarify.

Hint, it's in Genesis chapter 20.

[b][i]

[Gary]

In the prior example, it would be wholly unreasonable for Asan and Bsan to ascribe the third sequence of events to anything but a miracle.

Using your "everyone knows" principle, the fact is that lightning will be almost certain to kill anyone that it strikes. And the "science demonstrates" principle shows that lightning won't pass through air when it has a better path to ground e.g. a human body. Anyone witnessing an event of equivalent certainty and walking away believing there is a natural explanation for it would rightly be considered a complete idiot or insane.

Insofar as an equivalent event providing proof of the existence of a particular deity, you would be correct: the only source of information in that regard would be the person who pointed the finger.

Sorry, I don't follow your logic. Thousands of people each year, all over the world, are struck by lightning, sometimes in the oddest of circumstances. At one time theists blamed such events on the wrath of a god, we now know, thanks to Ben Franklin, that lightning is a natural phenomenon. No one today believes that lightning is a supernatural act...thanks to science.

[Gary]

Hint, it's in Genesis chapter 20.

Sorry. I'm still missing your point.

[Christianbookworm]

I am a messenger of truth, exposing the evils of supernaturalism.

I was invited here by Nick. If Nick or the moderators of TW ask me to leave, I will leave. Until then, you are stuck with me.

I know! Just making sure you ain't feelin' bullied and having to go cry in a corner because of the meanie Christians.