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  • Originally posted by Gary View Post
    Nick,

    Do you categorically condemn, in all circumstances, and in all ages, the chasing down of little children to chop off their little arms, legs, or head, or, to run a sword through their little bodies?
    There is no such thing as "scholarship" regarding whether or not the chasing down and butcher of children is immoral. There is only "spin". I don't need to read Mein Kampf to know that Hitler was immoral and evil to murder six million Jews. I don't need to bother with his excuses for why he felt justified in doing it. So too, I do not need to read the justification for genocides in the ancient world, by Christians desperately trying to invent justifications for the immorality of their sick, genocide-excusing belief system.
    Last edited by Gary; 09-05-2015, 02:41 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gary View Post
      Nick,

      Do you categorically condemn, in all circumstances, and in all ages, the chasing down of little children to chop off their little arms, legs, or head, or, to run a sword through their little bodies?
      Can you show an account of that happening?

      And you categorically ignore in all circumstances and at all times any of the best scholarship that disagrees with your opinion while claiming to be open to scholarship?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
        Can you show an account of that happening?

        And you categorically ignore in all circumstances and at all times any of the best scholarship that disagrees with your opinion while claiming to be open to scholarship?
        Scholarship in determining if the massacres of the Midianites, Canaanites, and Amalekites really did occur??

        I personally do not believe that any of these events actually happened. Many scholars believe that the majority of the stories recounted in the Pentateuch of the Old Testament are inventions by people writing a nationalistic fiction in the seventh century BCE. I am addressing the belief by many lay Christians that these events did happen and were justified, or that they probably didn't happen, but if they did, they would have been justified. It is the immorality of this justification that I am attacking. I am not addressing the historicity of the event itself.
        Last edited by Gary; 09-05-2015, 02:48 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Gary View Post
          This is what your god ordered his "faithful" to do to thousands of helpless Amalekite, Midianite, and Canaanite children. Shame on all of you for making pathetic justifications for these immoral, barbaric acts..
          Amakelite children wore shorts....who knew?? Surely you can do better than putting up pictures of dead children and claiming equivalence to any such death. We all know children die and are killed. It does not phase an intelligent theist to recognize what we all know - people die, children die, people are killed and children are killed. Most every theist i know recognizes that death is in the hands of God. so you could indict God for the death of every child regardless of circumstance or whether they were killed at the hands of other humans or not.

          Lets cut to the chase. skeptics tend to think this is some great argument and are flabbergasted when theists don't buy it. Why? because skeptics rarely address themselves to the issues theists are fully aware of and that make the skeptics argument somewhat of a strawman

          A) No theists maintains that human beings ought to take the life of anyone much less children so such pictures and claims have no equivalence. Even the very Bible that you are trying to indicts forbids murder. What occurs once or twice in the old testament (thousands and thousands of years ago demonstrating its a rare circumstance) is GOD not men coming up with the idea to mete judgement on some people. Skeptics do a circular argument here claiming that ALL instances of men claiming to be acting on God's behalf stand as equivalents of God REALLY telling someone to do something. However maintaining that theists and in particular Bible believers are for men killing children is a strawman. We believe only God has that right and thats what we see in those biblical circumstances. Further We do not have a national force backed by God to take the promise land and have not had that for many centuries plus we are told that no such force will ever exist again making it not only unlikely but impossible for anyone to make the claim the actions of Jim Jones or others have equivalence in God telling the person to do such things. What skeptics should do if they want this argument to fly is address why it is immoral for GOD to take life not point to people CLAIMING they have been told by God to take life- that would be more relevant particularly in light of the fact that almost all religions put the power to take life as one of God's right

          B) Every theists accepts the quality and character of God as defining his perspective. Skeptics almost always insist their own human perspective must and can be the only one. To the skeptic Death is final and the ultimate negative. To the skeptic God is temporal and cannot know things that no one else knows. skeptics inject their own skepticism into the argument against God's character and perspective in order to get to a circular conclusion. God can't have a deeper knowledge than we do of the Amakelites and his actions cannot be judged on eternal considerations but only those leading up to death.

          Unless you deal with A and B

          Why God does not have the right to take life as every religion claims he does

          and

          why God cannot have a vision and perspective beyond the human

          you won't convince many intelligent theists of your claim of immorality of God being a necessity in taking the live of the Amakelites. You'll just be peddling straw
          Last edited by Mikeenders; 09-05-2015, 02:52 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gary View Post
            Scholarship in determining if the massacres of the Midianites, Canaanites, and Amalekites really did occur??

            I personally do not believe that any of these events actually happened. Many scholars believe that the majority of the stories recounted in the Pentateuch of the Old Testament are inventions by people writing a nationalistic fiction in the seventh century BCE. I am addressing the belief by many lay Christians that these events did happen and were justified, or that they probably didn't happen, but if they did, they would have been justified. It is the immorality of this justification that I am attacking. I am not addressing the historicity of the event itself.
            Why don't you try to interact with them and find out? Start with Flannagan and Copan's Did God Really Command Genocide?

            Or do you just not want your faith challenged?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gary View Post

              Praying to an imaginary, invisible deity is not going to prevent the suffering and deaths of children like those pictured above. These brutal acts will only be prevented if HUMAN BEINGS act to prevent them. Stop praying, and start DOING.
              Considering the world has yet to see an atheist organization create any change in the lives of children even 5% of what Bible believing Christians have in the safety and betterment of children's lives the admonishment for us to do rather than pray is TOTALLY hilarious. Perhaps we should tell you - stop posting and start doing ..we'll wait while you catch up.
              Last edited by Mikeenders; 09-05-2015, 03:33 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mikeenders View Post
                Amakelite children wore shorts....who knew?? Surely you can do better than putting up pictures of dead children and claiming equivalence to any such death. We all know children die and are killed. It does not phase an intelligent theist to recognize what we all know - people die, children die, people are killed and children are killed. Most every theist i know recognizes that death is in the hands of God. so you could indict God for the death of every child regardless of circumstance or whether they were killed at the hands of other humans or not.

                Lets cut to the chase. skeptics tend to think this is some great argument and are flabbergasted when theists don't buy it. Why? because skeptics rarely address themselves to the issues theists are fully aware of and that make the skeptics argument somewhat of a strawman

                A) No theists maintains that human beings ought to take the life of anyone much less children so such pictures and claims have no equivalence. Even the very Bible that you are trying to indicts forbids murder. What occurs once or twice in the old testament (thousands and thousands of years ago demonstrating its a rare circumstance) is GOD not men coming up with the idea to mete judgement on some people. Skeptics do a circular argument here claiming that ALL instances of men claiming to be acting on God's behalf stand as equivalents of God REALLY telling someone to do something. However maintaining that theists and in particular Bible believers are for men killing children is a strawman. We believe only God has that right and thats what we see in those biblical circumstances. Further We do not have a national force backed by God to take the promise land and have not had that for many centuries plus we are told that no such force will ever exist again making it not only unlikely but impossible for anyone to make the claim the actions of Jim Jones or others have equivalence in God telling the person to do such things. What skeptics should do if they want this argument to fly is address why it is immoral for GOD to take life not point to people CLAIMING they have been told by God to take life- that would be more relevant particularly in light of the fact that almost all religions put the power to take life as one of God's right

                B) Every theists accepts the quality and character of God as defining his perspective. Skeptics almost always insist their own human perspective must and can be the only one. To the skeptic Death is final and the ultimate negative. To the skeptic God is temporal and cannot know things that no one else knows. skeptics inject their own skepticism into the argument against God's character and perspective in order to get to a circular conclusion. God can't have a deeper knowledge than we do of the Amakelites and his actions cannot be judged on eternal considerations but only those leading up to death.

                Unless you deal with A and B

                Why God does not have the right to take life as every religion claims he does

                and

                why God cannot have a vision and perspective beyond the human

                you won't convince many intelligent theists of your claim of immorality of God being a necessity in taking the live of the Amakelites. You'll just be peddling straw
                Yes, I see your point, friend, but for your argument to be valid you must first prove the following:

                1. A Creator exists.
                2. If a Creator exists, that he/she/it is an all-powerful, all-knowing Being, not just a cloud of gas or a black hole.
                2. Yahweh is that Creator God Being.

                If you could prove all that to me, then I would say, "Yes, Yahweh has the power and right to kill, or, to order the killing of whomever he chooses.

                My contention is that although there is reasonably good evidence for some kind of an intelligent Creator, we have no credible evidence that "the Creator" ordered these acts of infanticide and genocide. We only have claims from fundamentalist Jews and Christians that the ancient Hebrew god, Yahweh ordered them. The evidence that the Creator is the ancient Hebrew god Yahweh is pathetically weak. Therefore, for Christians to use the commands of the Hebrew god Yahweh as justification for chasing down and executing children has no good basis in fact.

                Prove to me that the Creator ordered these killings and I will accept that he had the right to commit these acts. I will still condemn his acts as immoral, but I cannot say that he/she/it did not have a "right" to do so.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                  Why don't you try to interact with them and find out? Start with Flannagan and Copan's Did God Really Command Genocide?

                  Or do you just not want your faith challenged?
                  You are not listening, Nick.

                  I am not arguing for or against the historicity of these alleged historical events. I am arguing against the justification that just because Yahweh orders children to be slaughtered, this somehow makes butchering little children ok.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mikeenders View Post
                    Considering the world has yet to see an atheist organization create any change in the lives of children even 5% of what Bible believing Christians have in the safety and betterment of children's lives the admonishment for us to do rather than pray is TOTALLY hilarious. Perhaps we should tell you - stop posting and start doing ..we'll wait while you catch up.
                    Actually, you are incorrect. It is true that theists, per capita, give more to "charity" than non-theists, however, this advantage is erased when one takes into account that most theists include giving to their local church/synagogue/mosque as "charity". Most of this money is not spent on the needy but on clergy salaries, maintenance, new furniture for the ladies' Bible study room, etc.. If you look at the percentage of income that the average theist and average non-theist actually give to the needy, the numbers are even.

                    Comment


                    • You can't prove God like a mathematical proof can be proved. You are asking for a ridiculous standard of evidence that if taken to logical extremes would mean that nothing could be proved. So, I'm not taking you seriously at all.
                      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                        You are not listening, Nick.

                        I am not arguing for or against the historicity of these alleged historical events. I am arguing against the justification that just because Yahweh orders children to be slaughtered, this somehow makes butchering little children ok.
                        It's ironic that I've put up great scholarship on the issue you've ignored and yet you claim I'm the one not listening.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                          I would perform a citizen's arrest on his father, turn him over to the local nomadic sheriff, and then give the child something to eat and drink while sending a messenger to the local nomadic social services office to come and pick up the child to place in a nomadic foster home until the father had served his prison sentence.

                          :)
                          You have got to be joking. The whole Amalekite tribe were land priates! And social services nor prisons existed back then. Nice try. The only available orphanage for them would be heaven.
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                            It's ironic that I've put up great scholarship on the issue you've ignored and yet you claim I'm the one not listening.
                            For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

                            Donchaknow that atheists are very smart and Christians are stupid because atheists say so? Atheists don't need no stinkin' scholorship!

                            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                              Yes, I see your point, friend, but for your argument to be valid you must first prove the following:

                              1. A Creator exists.
                              2. If a Creator exists, that he/she/it is an all-powerful, all-knowing Being, not just a cloud of gas or a black hole.
                              2. Yahweh is that Creator God Being.

                              If you could prove all that to me, then I would say, "Yes, Yahweh has the power and right to kill, or, to order the killing of whomever he chooses.
                              Nope. its you that are evaluating an ancient biblical text and making an assertion about the morality of it so you can't logically do that by ignoring the theistic context. If you wish to have a debate about the existence of God thats another matter. However you just finished posting a few posts ago that you are specifically questioning the morality of those defending the position the bible takes. Since the biblical position is God exists its incoherent to take it out of that context.

                              By way of analogy its as if you accuse of immorality those that hypothetically believe JFK didn't commit adultery with Monroe because he was not really married to Jackie O. You may argue that they are wrong and he was married to Jackie O but obviously wrong to question their morality if they believe he wasn't.

                              Id gladly debate you on the existence of God and of the Judea christian God being that God but seeing how poorly you debated your last subject and so far haven't debated anything particularly well it is you that need to prove to this board that you can actually conduct a debate worthy of the time.

                              Case in point - this is just utterly incoherent and irrational.

                              Prove to me that the Creator ordered these killings and I will accept that he had the right to commit these acts. I will still condemn his acts as immoral, but I cannot say that he/she/it did not have a "right" to do so.
                              the exercise of a right cannot be immoral and condemned unless you are in fact still calling the "rightness" of it into question. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth
                              Last edited by Mikeenders; 09-05-2015, 06:12 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                                Actually, you are incorrect. It is true that theists, per capita, give more to "charity" than non-theists, however, this advantage is erased when one takes into account that most theists include giving to their local church/synagogue/mosque as "charity". Most of this money is not spent on the needy but on clergy salaries, maintenance, new furniture for the ladies' Bible study room, etc.. If you look at the percentage of income that the average theist and average non-theist actually give to the needy, the numbers are even.
                                Thats just nonsense. I notice whenever you get yourself in a corner you appeal to your own authority and try to bluster your way through. You will argue anything just to argue it even when its perfectly obvious you have no point. Kindly put up the definite atheist organizations supporting needy children around the world and when you are done I will bury you with the number of christian organizations that dwarfs whatever you find

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