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  • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Talk about circular reasoning. Saying that miracles are impossible because miracles are impossible doesn't prove anything.
    Where did I say that miracles are impossible?

    What I said is that miracles are IMPROBABLE. Big difference, Wormy.

    Comment


    • Can someone pull the lever on the fundy atheist canard see and say again? Maybe it will stop on the super secret surprise place! Where gary will come up with an original canard that none of us have heard before. If he does that, I'll give him a super secret surprise reward for originality!
      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gary View Post
        Where did I say that miracles are impossible?

        What I said is that miracles are IMPROBABLE. Big difference, Wormy.
        I don't go looking around and claiming every little coincidence is a miracle either. You just seem to assume that the probability of a miracle is near nil, when one can't assign probabilities to the actions of God.
        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          I'll outline a ridiculously over-the-top scenario. In doing so I am running the risk of having you misunderstand the intent, and giving you the opportunity to misrepresent what I am saying. Nonetheless, I will outline the scenario anyway.

          Asan is a casual observer with prior satisfactory evidence that miracles occur.
          Bsan is also a casual observer, but with no prior satisfactory evidence that miracles occur.

          They see someone raise his hand and point at another person.

          Consider three possible courses that events may take.

          The person who raised his finger says:

          1/ "People like you should be struck by lightning." The person he is pointing at is immediately struck by lightning.

          2/ "summon lightning." The person he is pointing at is immediately struck by lightning.

          3/ "summon lightning." The speaker is hit by lightning and suffers no harm, and he shifts his hand slightly. The lightning travels through to his outstretched hand from whence it streams out to strike the ground at the other person's feet.

          option 1/ would leave neither Asan nor Bsan with reason to believe the strike was anything but coincidence.
          option 2/ would give Asan justification for declaring witness to a miracle, but not Bsan - Bsan would only have strong cause to believe the possibility of miracles.
          option 3/ would give both justification for declaring witness to a miracle.
          Here's the thing Tabby: I can't prove that miracles do not happen and you cannot prove that they do. Period.

          When a very odd, unheard of event occurs, you and I both will base our analysis of the event upon our world view. I will look at this event and say, "It was probably a very rare, but natural phenomenon" where as you might say, "the most probable explanation is that God did it". Who is right? Answer: We don't know.

          But if we look at statistics for cancer survival, death rates, disease incidence between certain groups of people we see something very odd: There is no statistical difference in cancer rates, disease rates, or cure rates among Christians vs. non-Christians, nor among theists vs. atheists. So prayers to Jesus are no more effective than prayers to Allah, and prayers to any god are no more effective than no prayers to no gods.

          Miracles may very well happen, but they are not evidence for the divinity of Jesus, the veracity of the Bible, the historicity of the Resurrection, nor of the existence of any deity.
          Last edited by Gary; 09-08-2015, 12:45 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
            Can someone pull the lever on the fundy atheist canard see and say again? Maybe it will stop on the super secret surprise place! Where gary will come up with an original canard that none of us have heard before. If he does that, I'll give him a super secret surprise reward for originality!
            I have nothing new to surprise you with, Wormy. Every discrepancy, contradiction, and error in your ancient book of superstitions has been pointed out to Christians for 2,000 years, and for 2,000 years believers in these ancient superstitions have concocted the most contorted of "harmonizations" to justify continued belief in ghost-impregnated, man-god conceiving virgins and reanimated, broiled-fish-eating, into-outer-space levitating dead Jewish prophets.
            Last edited by Gary; 09-08-2015, 12:51 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gary View Post
              I have nothing new to surprise you with, Wormy. Every discrepancy, contradiction, and error in your ancient book of superstitions has been pointed out to Christians for 2,000 years, and for 2,000 years believers in these ancient superstitions have concocted the most contorted of "harmonizations" to justify continued belief in ghost-impregnated virgins and reanimated, broiled-fish-eating, into-outer-space levitating dead Jewish prophets.
              Okay. I guess you won't complain about God giving a guy a death threat.
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                I don't go looking around and claiming every little coincidence is a miracle either. You just seem to assume that the probability of a miracle is near nil, when one can't assign probabilities to the actions of God.
                You are correct, although I can assign probabilities to things like virgin births and reanimations of dead bodies. Both of these alleged events are extremely, extremely, extremely rare or non-existent. I cannot prove they are non-existent, but since they are so improbable, I can choose to not pay any more attention to such claims than I would claims of visitations to earth by green, antennaed Martians.
                Last edited by Gary; 09-08-2015, 01:10 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                  You are correct, although I can assign probabilities to things like virgin births and reanimations of dead bodies. Both of these alleged events are extremely, extremely, extremely rare or non-existent. I cannot prove they are non-existent, but since they are so improbable, I can choose not pay any more attention to such claims than I would claims of visitations to earth by green, antennaed Martians.
                  Not paying any attention should mean not paying attention to those who believe it either. If you think we Christians are crazy for our beliefs, why not just leave us alone and go join some atheistic/agnostic forum where you can talk all you like about your views of life, the universe, and everything. I don't haunt atheist forums or make fun of people who believe in aliens on alien belief forums, so why do you like trolling here? Do you enjoy me comparing your points to a baby toy?
                  Last edited by Christianbookworm; 09-08-2015, 01:00 PM.
                  If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gary
                    Here's the thing Tabby: I can't prove that miracles do not happen and you cannot prove that they do. Period.

                    When a very odd, unheard of event occurs, you and I both will base our analysis of the event upon our world view. I will look at this event and say, "It was probably a very rare, but natural phenomenon" where as you might say, "the most probable explanation is that God did it". Who is right? Answer: We don't know.
                    In the prior example, it would be wholly unreasonable for Asan and Bsan to ascribe the third sequence of events to anything but a miracle.

                    Using your "everyone knows" principle, the fact is that lightning will be almost certain to kill anyone that it strikes. And the "science demonstrates" principle shows that lightning won't pass through air when it has a better path to ground e.g. a human body. Anyone witnessing an event of equivalent certainty and walking away believing there is a natural explanation for it would rightly be considered a complete idiot or insane.

                    Insofar as an equivalent event providing proof of the existence of a particular deity, you would be correct: the only source of information in that regard would be the person who pointed the finger.
                    Last edited by tabibito; 09-08-2015, 01:16 PM.
                    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                      Not paying any attention should mean not paying attention to those who believe it either. If you think we Christians are crazy for our beliefs, why not just leave us alone and go join some atheistic/agnostic forum where you can talk all you like about your views of life, the universe, and everything. I don't haunt atheist forums or make fun of people who believe in aliens on alien belief forums, so why do you like trolling here? Do you enjoy me comparing your points to a baby toy?
                      I am a messenger of truth, exposing the evils of supernaturalism.

                      I was invited here by Nick. If Nick or the moderators of TW ask me to leave, I will leave. Until then, you are stuck with me.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                        Okay. I guess you won't complain about God giving a guy a death threat.
                        Please clarify.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                          Please clarify.
                          Hint, it's in Genesis chapter 20.
                          Genesis 20New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                          Abraham’s Treachery

                          20 Now Abraham journeyed from there toward the land of the [a]Negev, and [b]settled between Kadesh and Shur; then he sojourned in Gerar. 2 Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, “Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is [c]married.” 4 Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a nation, even though [d]blameless? 5 Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my [e]hands I have done this.” 6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also [f]kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 Now therefore, restore the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”

                          8 So Abimelech arose early in the morning and called all his servants and told all these things in their hearing; and the men were greatly frightened. 9 Then Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, “What have you done to us? And [g]how have I sinned against you, that you have brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? You have done to me [h]things that ought not to be done.” 10 And Abimelech said to Abraham, “What have you [i]encountered, that you have done this thing?” 11 Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely there is no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife. 12 Besides, she actually is my sister, the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother, and she became my wife; 13 and it came about, when God caused me to wander from my father’s house, that I said to her, ‘This is [j]the kindness which you will show to me: [k]everywhere we go, say of me, “He is my brother.”’” 14 Abimelech then took sheep and oxen and male and female servants, and gave them to Abraham, and restored his wife Sarah to him. 15 Abimelech said, “Behold, my land is before you; [l]settle wherever [m]you please.” 16 To Sarah he said, “Behold, I have given your brother a thousand pieces of silver; behold, it is [n]your vindication before all who are with you, and before all men you are cleared.” 17 Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maids, so that they bore children. 18 For the Lord had closed fast all the wombs of the household of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham’s wife.
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            In the prior example, it would be wholly unreasonable for Asan and Bsan to ascribe the third sequence of events to anything but a miracle.

                            Using your "everyone knows" principle, the fact is that lightning will be almost certain to kill anyone that it strikes. And the "science demonstrates" principle shows that lightning won't pass through air when it has a better path to ground e.g. a human body. Anyone witnessing an event of equivalent certainty and walking away believing there is a natural explanation for it would rightly be considered a complete idiot or insane.

                            Insofar as an equivalent event providing proof of the existence of a particular deity, you would be correct: the only source of information in that regard would be the person who pointed the finger.
                            Sorry, I don't follow your logic. Thousands of people each year, all over the world, are struck by lightning, sometimes in the oddest of circumstances. At one time theists blamed such events on the wrath of a god, we now know, thanks to Ben Franklin, that lightning is a natural phenomenon. No one today believes that lightning is a supernatural act...thanks to science.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                              Hint, it's in Genesis chapter 20.
                              Sorry. I'm still missing your point.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                                I am a messenger of truth, exposing the evils of supernaturalism.

                                I was invited here by Nick. If Nick or the moderators of TW ask me to leave, I will leave. Until then, you are stuck with me.
                                I know! Just making sure you ain't feelin' bullied and having to go cry in a corner because of the meanie Christians.
                                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                                Comment

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