The Problem Of Evil?

[tabibito]

But if he doesn't know the future but just kind of calculates it based on known information then there is the possibility of him being wrong. Surely, there should be at least one example of that in the bible then? Where God goes, "oops! My bad!"

According to Biblical record, God said that if he promises to bless a righteous man, and that man goes on to do evil, the promise will be cancelled. Likewise God is said to have stated that if he promises to bring retribution upon an unrighteous man, and that unrighteous man repents, the promise will be cancelled. That does not speak of a future that is foreknown. Also, prophecies tend to come with an if, whether implicit or explicit. The messenger is often very careful to point out that the prophecy is subject to conditions being met. Again - not speaking of a future that is foreknown.

However, given that God's calculations are certain to be correct, it does not seem to me that an error is possible.

And yet the bible is full of prophesies that are about hundreds or thousands of years in the future for where they were made.

On occasion major events concerning entire populations are certainly declared centuries ahead of time; Apocalyptic forecasts aside, there doesn't seem to be much that is related to events millennia in advance, and the prophecies concerning the end times are not so much forecasting as they are declarations of intent.

[tabibito]

The fall caught Him off guard?

Going by the plain reading** of the text, the possibility cannot be denied. However, I am satisfied that a reasonable amount of Genesis is not intended to be read as factual.

{{** If the reading does not adjust for such things as metaphor, euphemism, colloquial expressions, etc so forth and so on, it is a raw reading, not a plain reading.}}

As to "much or all," that would be quite an overstatement (at least).

[seer]

Going by the plain reading** of the text, the possibility cannot be denied. However, I am satisfied that a reasonable amount of Genesis is not intended to be read as factual.

{{** If the reading does not adjust for such things as metaphor, euphemism, colloquial expressions, etc so forth and so on, it is a raw reading, not a plain reading.}}

As to "much or all," that would be quite an overstatement (at least).

So basically concerning a good portion of our behaviors God is clueless... And doesn't Scripture say that Christ's sacrifice was contemplated before the world was created?

[tabibito]

So basically concerning a good portion of our behaviors God is clueless...

Basically, goodly portions of my posts have to be jettisoned before such a claim can be made.

And doesn't Scripture say that Christ's sacrifice was contemplated before the world was created?

I don't recall such a passage - care to elucidate?

[seer]

I don't recall such a passage - care to elucidate?

Eph 1:4,5 ...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world....having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself.

Rev 13:8 ….. have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8 ….... whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

[Sparko]

According to Biblical record, God said that if he promises to bless a righteous man, and that man goes on to do evil, the promise will be cancelled. Likewise God is said to have stated that if he promises to bring retribution upon an unrighteous man, and that unrighteous man repents, the promise will be cancelled. That does not speak of a future that is foreknown. Also, prophecies tend to come with an if, whether implicit or explicit. The messenger is often very careful to point out that the prophecy is subject to conditions being met. Again - not speaking of a future that is foreknown.

those are just general rules. That in no way indicates that God doesn't know what someone will do. God can give conditions and still know what someone will ultimately choose. He would have to in order to not influence their choice right? If he wants to make sure you have a free choice, even though he might know what you will choose, he will make sure not to tell you what that choice will be.

However, given that God's calculations are certain to be correct, it does not seem to me that an error is possible.

If he can calculate what you will do to that extent then that seems to mean you are so predictable that you don't really have free will. The same problem as him knowing what you will do instead of "guessing" - If I can guess your reaction to any given situation to that great extent, then you are more of a robot than a person. You are simply following your programming. Your explanation seems to limit free will even more than you think mine does. I maintain that God's knowledge is contingent on your free will choices. Yours means you are so predictable that God knows how you will react to anything.

Tomorrow you do X.
God knows you will do X because that is what you did.

If instead you do Y,
then God knows you will do Y because that is what you did.

Where God is in time when he knows that is not even relevant since he exists eternally. Him knowing it the day after you do it isn't a problem is it? If you do Y on 2/5/2022 and God knows it on 2/6/2022 you wouldn't be complaining his knowledge means you had no free will. Just like me knowing what someone did two days ago doesn't mean they had no free will. Since God is eternal and omnipresent, he knows you (did Y on 2/5/2022) at all points in time. Because that is what you chose to do on 2/5/2022

[tabibito]

Eph 1:4,5 ...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world....having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself.

Rev 13:8 ….. have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8 ….... whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13 and 17 don't even begin to play.

13:8 "The lamb that was slain" identifies the book of Life: "the slain lamb's book of life."
"... whose name has not been written / from the foundation of the world" with "from" being a translation of "apo." In similar contexts, this "apo" is translated as "since," and is so translated for this verse in the NET Bible.

Ephesians 1 is kind of ambiguous - the reading could conceivably mean what you want it to, but other readings are equally viable. An ambiguous text is no foundation for a precept.

[seer]

Revelation 13 and 17 don't even begin to play.

13:8 "The lamb that was slain" identifies the book of Life: "the slain lamb's book of life."
"... whose name has not been written / from the foundation of the world" with "from" being a translation of "apo." In similar contexts, this "apo" is translated as "since," and is so translated for this verse in the NET Bible.

Ephesians 1 is kind of ambiguous - the reading could conceivably mean what you want it to, but other readings are equally viable. An ambiguous text is no foundation for a precept.

How does God know which names were written or not written in the book of life from or since the foundation of the world? And Eph1 is not in the least ambiguous. Salvation was contemplated before the world was created.

[tabibito]

How does God know which names were written or not written in the book of life from or since the foundation of the world?

Assess the following:

Written in this book are the names of all the people who have fallen in battle from/since the beginning of the war.

Are you going to interpret it as saying that the name of everyone who fell in battle was already written in the book when the war began?

And Eph1 is not in the least ambiguous. Salvation was contemplated before the world was created.

In that much, and no more, Ephesians 1 is unambiguous. Whether it means that the people selected for salvation were chosen before the foundation of the world, or that the action toward anyone (subsequently) was decided before the foundation of the world is ambiguous.

Thus
Reading A - It has been decided that Joe Bloggs, Fred Smith, ... ..., and Jane Doe were selected before the foundation of the world for salvation will receive certain benefits.
Reading B - It was decided (the decision being made before the foundation of the world) that anyone who comes to be selected for salvation will receive certain benefits.

[seer]

Are you going to interpret it as saying that the name of everyone who fell in battle was already written in the book when the war began?

Yes, that would be in keeping with God's foreknowledge.

In that much, and no more, Ephesians 1 is unambiguous. Whether it means that the people selected for salvation were chosen before the foundation of the world, or that the action toward anyone (subsequently) was decided before the foundation of the world is ambiguous.

Thus
Reading A - It has been decided that Joe Bloggs, Fred Smith, ... ..., and Jane Doe were selected before the foundation of the world for salvation will receive certain benefits.
Reading B - It was decided (the decision being made before the foundation of the world) that anyone who comes to be selected for salvation will receive certain benefits.

So God knew man would fall before the world was created?

[tabibito]

Tomorrow you do X.
God knows you will do X because that is what you did.

If instead you do Y,
then God knows you will do Y because that is what you did.

Yes, from that perspective, there is nothing that you will do - everything is what you have done, and you have done all of it by the time that the world was first formed. You never had the opportunity to do anything else. That eliminates any possibility of free will.
The call to repentance provides the opportunity to do something else.

[Sparko]

Yes, from that perspective, there is nothing that you will do - everything is what you have done, and you have done all of it by the time that the world was first formed. You never had the opportunity to do anything else. That eliminates any possibility of free will.

How? You seem to think of time as somehow already being done before it happens. That isn't what is going on. Things happen when they happen. You haven't eaten tomorrow's breakfast yet, you will eat it tomorrow, even if God knows about it 1000 years from now or 1000 years ago. And you will eat what you freely decide to eat at that time. Just like you did yesterday. Even though you know exactly what you ate yesterday, and you can't change that, it is fixed, doesn't mean you didn't choose to eat what you did freely.


If you knew that I ate cheerios for breakfast yesterday and you could jump into a time machine and go back 2 weeks, you would still know what I ate for breakfast yesterday. But you knowing it before I eat it doesn't mean my choice yesterday morning wasn't free. It just means you know what I chose to eat. Your location in time doesn't change anything.

[Machinist]

The question is, is that foreknowledge contingent on our actual acts. Can God merely see or know our future acts without determining them? That is the only question.

That is a possibility. I am just wondering why you believe it to be true. What makes this view more attractive than Open Theism?

[Machinist]

If you knew that I ate cheerios for breakfast yesterday and you could jump into a time machine and go back 2 weeks, you would still know what I ate for breakfast yesterday. But you knowing it before I eat it doesn't mean my choice yesterday morning wasn't free. It just means you know what I chose to eat. Your location in time doesn't change anything.-Sparko



The "observer effect" just came to mind here. Is that idea of any relevance at all in this discussion?

[seer]

That is a possibility. I am just wondering why you believe it to be true. What makes this view more attractive than Open Theism?

Because it retains human freedom and God's omniscience.