The Problem Of Evil?

[Stoic]

But you biology was created by the forces of nature - everything you think do or say was, at bottom, dictated by those forces.

What's your point?

[seer]

What's your point?

That you are a puppet and your strings are being pulled by the forces of nature. Dumb, banal, superfluous forces.

[Stoic]

That you are a puppet and your strings are being pulled by the forces of nature. Dumb, banal, superfluous forces.

Not just me; all of us.

But you make it sound like that's a bad thing.

[seer]

Not just me; all of us.

No, I believe in free will. You know, real free will.

But you make it sound like that's a bad thing.

I find it interesting - these forces that don't care about you or your survival caused you to care about both. How does that happen?

[Stoic]

No, I believe in free will. You know, real free will.

If what you mean by "real free will" is libertarian free will, I strongly doubt that it exists. I don't even think it makes sense as a concept.

I find it interesting - these forces that don't care about you or your survival caused you to care about both. How does that happen?

I think we've discussed that often enough that we're not likely to make any more headway on the topic. In short, evolution can produce beings who care about themselves and their survival, even without forces that care about those beings or their survival.

[Tassman]

He create me with full knowledge of everything I would freely choose to do. He didn't make me do it.

How could you “freely choose” when there is nothing of which an omniscient deity is unaware including ALL the choices you will ever make. If you did NOT “do it” then God is not omniscient.

You still haven't explained how knowing what I will do means I didn't do it of my own free will.

Your creator God has not only eternally known what you were going to do – long before you existed - he also created you in the full knowledge of every decision you would ever make. In short, you were predestined to make the decisions you make and your ‘freewill’ is an illusion.

[Tassman]

No, I believe in free will. You know, real free will.

“Real freewill” (i.e. libertarian freewill) doesn’t exist. We are creatures of our genetic make-up and social conditioning. We take our decisions either deterministically or randomly – but not completely freely.

I find it interesting - these forces that don't care about you or your survival caused you to care about both. How does that happen?

It happened via biology and natural selection, not theology.

[seer]

If what you mean by "real free will" is libertarian free will, I strongly doubt that it exists. I don't even think it makes sense as a concept.

Except we actually see that in our daily lives. I can choose to not pick my nose or to pick my nose. As far as I can tell my mind is free to make these choices.

I think we've discussed that often enough that we're not likely to make any more headway on the topic. In short, evolution can produce beings who care about themselves and their survival, even without forces that care about those beings or their survival.

There is a serious disconnect here, I can't put my finger on it, but some day I will figure it out and change the world?

[seer]

“Real freewill” (i.e. libertarian freewill) doesn’t exist. We are creatures of our genetic make-up and social conditioning. We take our decisions either deterministically or randomly – but not completely freely.

So you were determined to say the above - whether right or wrong, true or not.

[tabibito]

So you were determined to say the above - whether right or wrong, true or not.

Yep - It seems kind of strange to criticise a person for believing what they were predetermined to believe anyway ... oh ... the criticising would be predetermined too.

[seer]

Yep - It seems kind of strange to criticise a person for believing what they were predetermined to believe anyway ... oh ... the criticising would be predetermined too.

And it seems to undermine all rationality...

[Stoic]

Except we actually see that in our daily lives. I can choose to not pick my nose or to pick my nose. As far as I can tell my mind is free to make these choices.

That would be true whether or not your actions were completely determined.

[Machinist]

That would be true whether or not your actions were completely determined.

What would be true? That it would seem so as far as any one could tell?

[Machinist]

And it seems to undermine all rationality...

You're saying that predetermination undermines rationality? That's an interesting line of thought to explore.

[seer]

You're saying that predetermination undermines rationality? That's an interesting line of thought to explore.

Of course it does. Well materialistic determinism would.