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Sympathy for the Devil

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  • #76
    As earlier posts illustrated, from sixth century BCE Israelite storytellers occasionally made reference to a supernatural entity they regarded as an opponent or adversary . However, the satan was still a term that designated a particular function, it had yet to become a proper name. In both the book of Job and in chapter three of Zechariah this figure is a divine prosecuting counsel.

    As has also been noted, following the return of the Babylonian exiles the situation in Judah was somewhat fraught, with different groups vying for control, and it is around the mid to late sixth century BCE that the satan starts take on more antagonistic, possibly malign, attributes.
    In the opening verses of Genesis chapter six there is short narrative about the sons of God who, attracted to mortal women, decide to take wives from among them. The results of these unions are the Nephilim who “were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown.
    The deity decrees that these offspring cannot live for more than 120 years and thereby removes the Nephilim from the divine realm of eternal life.

    It would appear that immortality and a knowledge of good and evil marked the boundary between the divine and the mortal. Humankind had already gained the latter and in Genesis chapter three the chief deity expresses concern that humans may gain the former when it speaks to its fellow deities,See, the humans have become like one of us, knowing good and evil, and now they might reach out their hands and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever.

    The opening verses of Genesis chapter six have no apparent negative aspects in and of themselves. However, they appear in a narrative that leads directly to the deity being concerned with humankind’s sin. It is therefore possible to read the entire chapter as an assault upon the natural order. Divine beings consummating their relationships with mortals and producing offspring being a sin and thereby providing justification for the flood.

    This theme is taken up in both 1 Enoch and Jubilees where some of those divine beings, the “sons of God” violated the divine and natural order by mating with human women. In Genesis six the juxtaposition of the story of the Nephilim and the flood only hint at a possible connection between the two, whereas in Jubilees there is a direct causal relationship. The actions of these “sons of God” otherwise known as “Watchers” or “angels” is made quite clear in Jubilees chapter five verse six:

    ...And against the angels whom He had sent upon the earth, He was exceedingly wroth, and He gave commandments to root them out of all their dominion, and He bade us bind them in the depths of the earth.


    A decision that carries distinct echoes of Greek mythology and the treatment meted out to the Titans, the pre-Olympian deities.

    A few verses later, Yahweh decides to destroy everything:

    And the Lord said that he would destroy everything which was upon the earth.



    A second group of stories taking their starting point from verses twelve to fourteen in Isaiah chapter fourteen to fourteen and the reference to the “Son of Dawn” suggest that a highly placed angelic figure was cast out of heaven for insubordination and/or challenging the divine order. This “Son of Dawn” is linked in the LXX with Hesiod's, Heōsphoros son of Heōs, and in the Latin vulgate as Lucifer who rose in the morning, “qui mane oriebaris”.




    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • #77
      FAO tabibito

      In the exchange we have had on another thread concerning Isaiah chapter fourteen and the tyrant king who challenges Yahweh, it should be noted that the figure's expulsion in that ancient myth would later be recycled by Christianity in its story of Lucifer, the star bright but rebellious "fallen angel" who on being thrown out of heaven takes up a new career as the Devil.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        FAO tabibito

        In the exchange we have had on another thread concerning Isaiah chapter fourteen and the tyrant king who challenges Yahweh, it should be noted that the figure's expulsion in that ancient myth would later be recycled by Christianity in its story of Lucifer, the star bright but rebellious "fallen angel" who on being thrown out of heaven takes up a new career as the Devil.


        There was no concept in Hebrew observance, and even less in Christian, that associated the morning star with any opponent of YHVH.
        Last edited by tabibito; Yesterday, 03:33 AM.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post



          There was no concept in Hebrew observance, and even less in Christian, that associated the morning star with any opponent of YHVH.
          ?
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Always liked the Rolling Stones song, but then I always liked the Stones.





            Please allow me to introduce myself
            I'm a man of wealth and taste
            I've been around for a long, long year
            Stole many a man's soul and faith
            And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
            Had his moment of doubt and pain
            Made damn sure that Pilate
            Washed his hands and sealed his fate

            Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name
            But what's puzzlin' you is the nature of my game

            Stuck around St. Petersburg
            When I saw it was a time for a change
            Killed the Tsar and his ministers
            Anastasia screamed in vain
            I rode a tank, held a general's rank
            When the Blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank
            Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name

            Oh, yeah
            Ah, what's puzzlin' you is the nature of my game
            Aww, yeah

            [...]

            I like the Guns n' Roses cover:

            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

              I like the Guns n' Roses cover:

              Whenever I see or hear Hudson/Slash I cannot help but envisage him as a little boy being taken up to bed to have a bedtime story read to him by "Uncle" David [Bowie] while his mother worked on Bowie's stage costumes.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                I like the Guns n' Roses cover:

                The purpose of the song, as expressed by the title, is the devil portraying himself as worthy of sympathy (even if he doesn't do a good job at it), but G&R's version turns it into an arrogant boast.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  The purpose of the song, as expressed by the title, is the devil portraying himself as worthy of sympathy (even if he doesn't do a good job at it), but G&R's version turns it into an arrogant boast.
                  Not according to this: https://americansongwriter.com/behin...for-the-devil/

                  The fiendish track can be traced back to the Soviet Union-era satire The Master and Margarita, written by Mikhail Bulgakov. The complex work was a meditation on the omnipresent battle between good and evil as seen through the lens of Joseph Stalin’s dictatorship.[...]

                  Given the weight of their public trials and tribulations, by the time 1968 rolled around the group was searching for a new path forward. “I was educating myself,” Jagger once said. “I was reading a lot of poetry, I was reading a lot of philosophy.” It was around this time that his then-girlfriend Marianne Faithfull introduced him to The Master and Margarita. Inspired by the story, Jagger started to shape a folk rock song that would eventually take on a far more raucous form.


                  If you have read Bulgakov's masterpiece you will know that the individual appears almost straight away in chapter one and is described as a rather dapper individual wearing an expensive suit and shoes, a beret, and carrying a walking stick. Chapter two is entitled Pontius Pilate.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment

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