The Problem Of Evil?

[Tassman]

How does knowledge of my acts, actually influence my acts. Be specific please...

At what point in the process do you freely choose? Your seemingly “free choices” have been known by the omniscient, omnipotent deity since before you existed, i.e., they are predestined.

[Alien]

However, given that God's calculations are certain to be correct, it does not seem to me that an error is possible.

A personal question if I may, and starting with the admission that all I know about you is what I read here.

I have read what you say and you strike me as a very logical person. Then I read the above statement. My question is, why do you ignore the, to me, obvious logical conclusion that the most likely explanation is that the Bible texts were written by humans, some of whom may have been in touch with "god", and are most likely to be based on what they knew at the time. In other words, the Bible is not a reliable source of absolute truth. Added to that, the concept of God as being discussed here is incredibly unlikely. Remember, you are suggesting the existence of a being that lives out of time and has powers that are totally foreign to our experience.

My question then is, what is the base of your faith?

A very brief summary of my journey into (and later out of) theism, goes like this. I can't take any given religion as a guide to reality, as they all disagree. In any case the idea of defining an infinite being seems to be doomed to failure, given our finite view of the world. Add to that the idea that God would be so much more powerful than me, he could easily frustrate any efforts I might make to investigate him. What's left then? My answer was, "ask him" and that's what I did. I received, I thought, a response, not in words, but convincing to me at the time. However, all it added up to was "I exist", which was nevertheless a huge step forward for an atheist. I did feel an influence in my life though. The analogy I have used before is this. I have a TV set which I don't understand. I see an outlet in the wall that fits the plug on the TV. I plug it in and pictures appear on the screen. What I can reasonably conclude is that there is something in the outlet that has power. I didn't know what it was, but I knew I could use it to power the TV. So, I set out on a journey of discovery, all the time asking "whatever it was" to guide me. I joined a Christian church (United Methodist) but I never came to believe in the things that defined a Christian, like virgin birth, trinity, and so on. So, my "faith", for want of a better word, was based on my own experiences, as far as they went. How it all faded away is another story for another time.

I'm not looking for a debate, though anyone can join in with their own answer to my question.

[tabibito]

If you knew that I ate cheerios for breakfast yesterday and you could jump into a time machine and go back 2 weeks, you would still know what I ate for breakfast yesterday. But you knowing it before I eat it doesn't mean my choice yesterday morning wasn't free. It just means you know what I chose to eat. Your location in time doesn't change anything.-Sparko



The "observer effect" just came to mind here. Is that idea of any relevance at all in this discussion?

I am considering the possibility that everything in the future might be super-positioned.

[Machinist]

I am considering the possibility that everything in the future might be super-positioned.

Well it's definitely in a state of uncertainty that's for sure.

Why do you believe that God is limited to only what can be known?

[Machinist]

At what point in the process do you freely choose? Your seemingly “free choices” have been known by the omniscient, omnipotent deity since before you existed, i.e., they are predestined.

I can totally appreciate why someone would ask this question. What I find interested though, is that there is no logical objection to how foreknowledge of the choice someone will make affects that choice.

[Machinist]

Because it retains human freedom and God's omniscience.

This is pushing omniscience to the greatest ideal imaginable.

Why do you think the Open Theist's concept of omniscience stops short of uncertainty?

[tabibito]

Well it's definitely in a state of uncertainty that's for sure.

Why do you believe that God is limited to only what can be known?

Because somewhere in the Old Testament, it says just that. Unfortunately, I have forgotten the exact wording so tracing the reference is proving a problem. (Nor do I claim that my memory is perfect - it may be that memory is playing me false.)

[Machinist]

Because somewhere in the Old Testament, it says just that. Unfortunately, I have forgotten the exact wording so tracing the reference is proving a problem. (Nor do I claim that my memory is perfect - it may be that memory is playing me false.)

I was looking for more than an interpretation of scripture. Some form of ontological argument perhaps?

[tabibito]

A personal question if I may, and starting with the admission that all I know about you is what I read here.

These questions comprise quite a powder keg.

I have read what you say and you strike me as a very logical person. Then I read the above statement. My question is, why do you ignore the, to me, obvious logical conclusion that the most likely explanation is that the Bible texts were written by humans, some of whom may have been in touch with "god", and are most likely to be based on what they knew at the time. In other words, the Bible is not a reliable source of absolute truth.

1/ I don't ignore the logical conclusion - where people have declared that they are citing or paraphrasing God (oversimplified, but basically correct) that information has come from God. Much of the Biblical record concerns what people have observed for themselves and considered worthy of recording: those records are likely to be overlain with personal perspectives and simple mistakes, and no more likely to be perfectly accurate than any other record produced by honest witnesses. In short - those records will not be free of error. I take the "honest witness" bit on faith, admittedly, premised on the idea that the people concerned had a respect for God and therefore for the truth.

Added to that, the concept of God as being discussed here is incredibly unlikely.

Remember, you are suggesting the existence of a being that lives out of time and has powers that are totally foreign to our experience.

Correct. Most of what I present is a matter of assessing available data and extrapolation. WRT freewill, the Biblical evidence shows freewill to be in existence and functional. For that to be the case, the whole concept of a fixed time-line cannot (in my estimation) be accurate.

My question then is, what is the base of your faith?

Short answer: personal encounters with the power of God, predominantly prophecy. As a result, the way prophecy functions became a focus of interest; and somewhat easier to understand than what could be gleaned from reading the Bible. It came as quite a shock when I realised that what I had determined from examination and reflection had already been explained in science fiction books that I had read more than a decade earlier. I am not sure whether finding, later again, that the author, Isaac Asimov, had also written some rather impressive (for the time**) theology texts as well was less surprising or more. So, Psychohistory as described in Foundation and Foundation and Empire gives a really good introduction to how prophecy (insofar as it involves prognostication) works.


{{** The works remain very good, but more than a few sections were demonstrated incorrect by findings through the 1990s and beyond.}}

[tabibito]

I was looking for more than an interpretation of scripture. Some form of ontological argument perhaps?

Well I could comment that freewill can only be functional if some things are inherently unknowable (as observed fact) I suppose. Up until yesterday, I could not think of anything that would make it possible except that the future does not exist. Now it seems that super-positioning would also meet the requirements.

[tabibito]

Alien - I forgot to mention that "foreknowledge" (προγινωσκω) either has two meanings (far from a unique occurrence), in which case it might on occasion refer to prognostication, or only one meaning, in which case it cannot refer to prognostication.

Also, I am interested in how you assess the following statement. Not sure if I need to rearrange the exercise:

Assess the following:
Written in this book are the names of all the people who have fallen in battle from/since the beginning of the war.

When were the names written in the book?

[Sparko]

If you knew that I ate cheerios for breakfast yesterday and you could jump into a time machine and go back 2 weeks, you would still know what I ate for breakfast yesterday. But you knowing it before I eat it doesn't mean my choice yesterday morning wasn't free. It just means you know what I chose to eat. Your location in time doesn't change anything.-Sparko



The "observer effect" just came to mind here. Is that idea of any relevance at all in this discussion?

No. Not unless you tried to interfere with my action.

[Sparko]

At what point in the process do you freely choose? Your seemingly “free choices” have been known by the omniscient, omnipotent deity since before you existed, i.e., they are predestined.

No, they were "pre-known" but the REASON for that action was a free will choice.

[tabibito]

No, they were "pre-known" but the REASON for that action was a free will choice.

If it was a free-will choice, alternative actions would be possible. In the scenario you present no alternative action will ever have been possible.

[Sparko]

If it was a free-will choice, alternative actions would be possible. In the scenario you present no alternative action will ever have been possible.

Alternate actions were possible. But only one action could be chosen ultimately, correct? You can't change a decision once it has been committed to action.

This morning I ate pancakes. I could have ate cheerios but I didn't. But now that I have eaten pancakes on 2/5/2022 at 9AM I cannot change it. It is fixed in the timeline.

Tomorrow I can eat pancakes again, or I could eat cheerios. But I can only make a single choice of what to eat for breakfast (or not to eat at all). Whatever I choose will be a free will action, but once made it will be "fixed" in the timeline and I can't choose anything else. God knows what that choice will be.

Now I have no idea what I will choose tomorrow right now. But at some point I will make a decision and take action. God knowing what I will decide doesn't change the fact that it is me making the decision freely. God knows what I will decide. I don't. yet. But I will be free to choose whatever I want. And that is what God knows. No matter where God is located. Next week or last year or outside time altogether.