Originally posted by footwasher
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Cornelius and Total Depravity
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
He rejected the unbelievers. Added believing gentiles in their place, and kept the believing Israelites who remain as the Christian Church.Last edited by footwasher; 12-26-2020, 10:09 AM.
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
He rejected the unbelievers. Added believing gentiles in their place, and kept the believing Israelites who remain as the Christian Church.
My concern about the use of this word "Israelites" is mainly due to the fact that there's a lot of nuttery out there regarding this - particularly like replacement theology or supersessionism or other things that take away from the responsibility we have, as Christians, to preach the Gospel to all nations.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by footwasher View Post
You haven't answered who has the irrevocable calling, ministry, of being blessings to the world, will be grafted back when the required number of non-native branches are added.
uttermost = “forbidding us to speak to the nations that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always, but the anger did come upon them—to the end!” 1 Thessalonians 2:16 (YLT)
Only those who believe in Jesus will escape.
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
Are you adding your ideas to scripture? Paul says the broken off remain under God's wrath until the end.“Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” 1 Thessalonians 2:16 (KJV 1900)
uttermost = “forbidding us to speak to the nations that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always, but the anger did come upon them—to the end!” 1 Thessalonians 2:16 (YLT)
Only those who believe in Jesus will escape.
The real context of 1 Thessalonians 2:16
1 Thessalonians 2:14For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, 15who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, 16hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.
God did not forbid speaking to the Gentiles. It was the Pharisees who were hindering "the churches of God from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost."
Please do not twist Scripture.
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Originally posted by footwasher View Post
The real context of 1 Thessalonians 2:16
1 Thessalonians 2:14For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, 15who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, 16hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.
God did not forbid speaking to the Gentiles. It was the Pharisees who were hindering "the churches of God from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost."
Please do not twist Scripture.
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
The point is, Paul, says they remain under God's wrath until the end of the world. Only the few who believe in Christ will be saved.
More twisting. Your sins will catch you out, they are fully revealed, and remain revealed, in writing, cannot be denied like oral words. These are things you committed to text. We can go back, and prove you meant them.
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Originally posted by footwasher View Post
No the text says the Jews who did not believe Christ hindered the church of God from speaking to the Gentiles. You claimed God hindered/forbid the church from speaking to the Jews.
More twisting. Your sins will catch you out, they are fully revealed, and remain revealed, in writing, cannot be denied like oral words. These are things you committed to text. We can go back, and prove you meant them.
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
The point is they remain under God's wrath for rejecting Christ. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 (KJV 1900)
Romans 11:24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”
Your verse is describing INDIVIDUALS who reject the Gospel, who will be permanently rejected. Israel is a nation, God blinded them to reject the Gospel, cut it off, so that in the future, it will be accepted through being given mercy, just as Gentile nations, who were cut off initially, were included, through being given mercy. That is how God is fair, not practicing favoritism, by giving Israel eligibilty, even though no one was righteous, not even a single nation.
Romans 11:28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.Last edited by footwasher; 12-26-2020, 11:20 AM.
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Originally posted by footwasher View Post
The hardening of Israel is temporary.
Romans 11:24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”
Your verse is describing INDIVIDUALS who reject the Gospel, who will be permanently rejected. Israel is a nation, God blinded them to reject the Gospel, cut it off, so that in the future, it will be accepted through being given mercy, just as Gentile nations, who were cut off initially, were included, through being given mercy. That is how God is fair, not practicing favoritism, by giving Israel eligibilty, even though no one was righteous, not even a single nation.
Romans 11:28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
You seem like a reasonable guy, Dave....
My concern about the use of this word "Israelites" is mainly due to the fact that there's a lot of nuttery out there regarding this - particularly like replacement theology or supersessionism or other things that take away from the responsibility we have, as Christians, to preach the Gospel to all nations.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
I'm fully aware - but that doesn't change the fact that we do NOT become "Israelites". And the modern state of Israel is a democracy* - not the theocracy that the Old Testament Israel was.
*though, many secular Jews in Israel are very concerned that Israel is on the road to a theocracy
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
But, you need to learn this single point. You cannot understand Israel apart from it. Circumcision made one a physical member of Israel or a Physical Jew. Jesus abolished circumcision turning all unbelieving Jews and unbelieving members of Israel into gentiles.
Jews are still the physically circumscribed to be eligible for inclusion in Judaism, which is temporarily cut off. Christians do not need physical circumcision to be eligible for participation in the Christianity, which is grafted into Abraham, the father of all who have faith. Judaism will be included when God reveals how it will be a belief system based on faith, rather than works, else grace will not be grace.
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Originally posted by footwasher View Post
Wrong. Jesus eliminated the need for circumcision to be eligible for entry into the Christianity.
Jews are still the physically circumscribed to be eligible for inclusion in Judaism, which is temporarily cut off. Christians do not need physical circumcision to be eligible for participation in the Christianity, which is grafted into Abraham, the father of all who have faith. Judaism will be included when God reveals how it will be a belief system based on faith, rather than works, else grace will not be grace.
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Originally posted by Dave L View Post
The modern State is not biblical Israel.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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