Cornelius and Total Depravity

[Dave L]

So which nation has God not rejected?

Romans 11:1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

Because God's gifts and calling are irrevocable, Israel cannot be cut off permanently:

Romans 11:28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

He rejected the unbelievers. Added believing gentiles in their place, and kept the believing Israelites who remain as the Christian Church.

[footwasher]

He rejected the unbelievers. Added believing gentiles in their place, and kept the believing Israelites who remain as the Christian Church.

You haven't answered who has the irrevocable calling, ministry, of being blessings to the world, will be grafted back when the required number of non-native branches are added.

[Cow Poke]

He rejected the unbelievers. Added believing gentiles in their place, and kept the believing Israelites who remain as the Christian Church.

You seem like a reasonable guy, Dave....

My concern about the use of this word "Israelites" is mainly due to the fact that there's a lot of nuttery out there regarding this - particularly like replacement theology or supersessionism or other things that take away from the responsibility we have, as Christians, to preach the Gospel to all nations.

[Dave L]

You haven't answered who has the irrevocable calling, ministry, of being blessings to the world, will be grafted back when the required number of non-native branches are added.

Are you adding your ideas to scripture? Paul says the broken off remain under God's wrath until the end.“Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” 1 Thessalonians 2:16 (KJV 1900)

uttermost = “forbidding us to speak to the nations that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always, but the anger did come upon them—to the end!” 1 Thessalonians 2:16 (YLT)

Only those who believe in Jesus will escape.

[footwasher]

Are you adding your ideas to scripture? Paul says the broken off remain under God's wrath until the end.“Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” 1 Thessalonians 2:16 (KJV 1900)

uttermost = “forbidding us to speak to the nations that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always, but the anger did come upon them—to the end!” 1 Thessalonians 2:16 (YLT)

Only those who believe in Jesus will escape.

The real context of 1 Thessalonians 2:16


1 Thessalonians 2:14For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, 15who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, 16hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.


God did not forbid speaking to the Gentiles. It was the Pharisees who were hindering "the churches of God from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost."

Please do not twist Scripture.

[Dave L]

The real context of 1 Thessalonians 2:16


1 Thessalonians 2:14For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, 15who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, 16hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.


God did not forbid speaking to the Gentiles. It was the Pharisees who were hindering "the churches of God from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost."

Please do not twist Scripture.

The point is, Paul, says they remain under God's wrath until the end of the world. Only the few who believe in Christ will be saved.

[footwasher]

The point is, Paul, says they remain under God's wrath until the end of the world. Only the few who believe in Christ will be saved.

No the text says the Jews who did not believe Christ hindered the church of God from speaking to the Gentiles. You claimed God hindered/forbid the church from speaking to the Jews.

More twisting. Your sins will catch you out, they are fully revealed, and remain revealed, in writing, cannot be denied like oral words. These are things you committed to text. We can go back, and prove you meant them.

[Dave L]

No the text says the Jews who did not believe Christ hindered the church of God from speaking to the Gentiles. You claimed God hindered/forbid the church from speaking to the Jews.

More twisting. Your sins will catch you out, they are fully revealed, and remain revealed, in writing, cannot be denied like oral words. These are things you committed to text. We can go back, and prove you meant them.

The point is they remain under God's wrath for rejecting Christ. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 (KJV 1900)

[footwasher]

The point is they remain under God's wrath for rejecting Christ. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 (KJV 1900)

The hardening of Israel is temporary.

Romans 11:24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”


Your verse is describing INDIVIDUALS who reject the Gospel, who will be permanently rejected. Israel is a nation, God blinded them to reject the Gospel, cut it off, so that in the future, it will be accepted through being given mercy, just as Gentile nations, who were cut off initially, were included, through being given mercy. That is how God is fair, not practicing favoritism, by giving Israel eligibilty, even though no one was righteous, not even a single nation.

Romans 11:28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

[Dave L]

The hardening of Israel is temporary.

Romans 11:24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”


Your verse is describing INDIVIDUALS who reject the Gospel, who will be permanently rejected. Israel is a nation, God blinded them to reject the Gospel, cut it off, so that in the future, it will be accepted through being given mercy, just as Gentile nations, who were cut off initially, were included, through being given mercy. That is how God is fair, not practicing favoritism, by giving Israel eligibilty, even though no one was righteous, not even a single nation.

Romans 11:28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

But, you need to learn this single point. You cannot understand Israel apart from it. Circumcision made one a physical member of Israel or a Physical Jew. Jesus abolished circumcision turning all unbelieving Jews and unbelieving members of Israel into gentiles.

[Dave L]

You seem like a reasonable guy, Dave....

My concern about the use of this word "Israelites" is mainly due to the fact that there's a lot of nuttery out there regarding this - particularly like replacement theology or supersessionism or other things that take away from the responsibility we have, as Christians, to preach the Gospel to all nations.

Define Israelite with scripture.

[Dave L]

I'm fully aware - but that doesn't change the fact that we do NOT become "Israelites". And the modern state of Israel is a democracy* - not the theocracy that the Old Testament Israel was.


*though, many secular Jews in Israel are very concerned that Israel is on the road to a theocracy

The modern State is not biblical Israel.

[footwasher]

But, you need to learn this single point. You cannot understand Israel apart from it. Circumcision made one a physical member of Israel or a Physical Jew. Jesus abolished circumcision turning all unbelieving Jews and unbelieving members of Israel into gentiles.

Wrong. Jesus eliminated the need for circumcision to be eligible for entry into the Christianity.

Jews are still the physically circumscribed to be eligible for inclusion in Judaism, which is temporarily cut off. Christians do not need physical circumcision to be eligible for participation in the Christianity, which is grafted into Abraham, the father of all who have faith. Judaism will be included when God reveals how it will be a belief system based on faith, rather than works, else grace will not be grace.

[Dave L]

Wrong. Jesus eliminated the need for circumcision to be eligible for entry into the Christianity.

Jews are still the physically circumscribed to be eligible for inclusion in Judaism, which is temporarily cut off. Christians do not need physical circumcision to be eligible for participation in the Christianity, which is grafted into Abraham, the father of all who have faith. Judaism will be included when God reveals how it will be a belief system based on faith, rather than works, else grace will not be grace.

Circumcision, not birth, made one a physical Jew (religion) or physical member of Israel. Christ abolished this rite.

[Cow Poke]

The modern State is not biblical Israel.

I have made that point repeatedly.