Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Cornelius and Total Depravity

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Cornelius and Total Depravity

    Some people say that before Cornelius became a Christian, he was a devout man and he feared God. They also say that God was pleased with prayers before he became a Christian. They would say that this disproves the total depravity of man. What do you think about this? Is Cornelius really a non-Christian in Acts 10:1-4? If he was a non-Christian, does the fact that he feared God disprove the total depravity of man?

    Acts 10:1-4 states:

    Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!” And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Hornet View Post
    Some people say that before Cornelius became a Christian, he was a devout man and he feared God. They also say that God was pleased with prayers before he became a Christian. They would say that this disproves the total depravity of man. What do you think about this? Is Cornelius really a non-Christian in Acts 10:1-4? If he was a non-Christian, does the fact that he feared God disprove the total depravity of man?

    Acts 10:1-4 states:
    He was exsposed to the God of Israel through the Jewish people. This is not contrary to the Biblical depravity of men.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hornet, please provide your definition of what "the total depravity of man" is.
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Hornet, please provide your definition of what "the total depravity of man" is.
        ^That.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Hornet View Post
          Some people say that before Cornelius became a Christian, he was a devout man and he feared God. They also say that God was pleased with prayers before he became a Christian. They would say that this disproves the total depravity of man. What do you think about this? Is Cornelius really a non-Christian in Acts 10:1-4? If he was a non-Christian, does the fact that he feared God disprove the total depravity of man?
          I believe he was a believer, like Abraham, the example for us of saving faith. But he needed to put faith in Christ, just like the disciples of John the Baptist did. If they were truly believers, then they would take that step, I conclude.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #6
            I think of Cornelius as being like Lydia and Apollos, maybe add Simeon and Anna at the time of the infancy of Jesus: People who were saved by faith as was Abraham, but who have not yet heard of Jesus at the time. As soon as they heard of Jesus, they trusted in Him.

            Comment


            • #7
              I will contribute a point, a conclusion, I have about Roman 3, which may show that Romans 3 does not refer to the total depravity of man .

              The discussion in the Rom 3:10-18 is used by Paul to counter the sense that, in verse 9, Jews are better than "us" (this pronoun referring to the Gentile audience and, figuratively, Paul).

              Paul was countering the general principle, as held by Jews, that Jews were superior to Gentiles or that the law was a superior way of making one righteous; this was the background theory that caused a problem in Rome. Paul wrote verses 10-18 to counter non-Christians among the Jews who had said that works of the law was needed to make a person into a decent person.

              Verses 10-18 show that the law actually did not establish righteousness for those who sought to be justified by it. The law that Paul presented in these verses shows that the law testified to their unrighteousness. The situation was like being in a deep pit and trying to climb out on a ladder that was sinking into quicksand. The ladder won't get you out of the hole.

              The passage was not saying that Jews were further away from enjoying the benefits in Christ. However, the law did not give the Jews (or the Christian gentiles in Rome) an advantage.

              So, Romans 3:10-18, in my reading, was not Paul's view that all humanity was totally depraved. Instead, he was showing that the law was not contributing to Jews' righteousness and thus the Gentiles should not seek works of the law. Nor should the Gentiles feel inferior because they are not relying on works of the law.

              Note: It will take me a long time to get the background material docuemented to undergird this reading.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Hornet, please provide your definition of what "the total depravity of man" is.
                The total depravity of man consists of the following: 1. Human beings are sinful and sin has affected every part of their lives and 2. A person will not seek God unless God first draws him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                  The total depravity of man consists of the following: 1. Human beings are sinful and sin has affected every part of their lives and 2. A person will not seek God unless God first draws him.
                  But doesn't God draw everyone?

                  2 Peter 3:9
                  The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

                  and:

                  Rev 3:20
                  Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    But doesn't God draw everyone?

                    2 Peter 3:9
                    The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

                    and:

                    Rev 3:20
                    Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
                    We might also add John 12:32:

                    "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

                    But not all are drawn at once:

                    "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." (John 6:44)

                    So all who are drawn are raised, but not all are raised.

                    A conundrum!

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      We might also add John 12:32:

                      "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

                      But not all are drawn at once:

                      "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." (John 6:44)

                      So all who are drawn are raised, but not all are raised.

                      A conundrum!

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      It doesn't say all who are drawn are raised or will come to Jesus.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                        The total depravity of man consists of the following: 1. Human beings are sinful and sin has affected every part of their lives and 2. A person will not seek God unless God first draws him.
                        In your opinion, of course.
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          It doesn't say all who are drawn are raised or will come to Jesus.
                          "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." (John 6:44)

                          "Them" would refer to the same people in both phrases, so then all who are drawn will be raised, and therefore will come.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." (John 6:44)

                            "Them" would refer to the same people in both phrases, so then all who are drawn will be raised, and therefore will come.
                            A further point can be made, in the Greek it's "him", not "them", in both places--so this is definitely talking about the same person, and thus the same group of people.

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." (John 6:44)

                              "Them" would refer to the same people in both phrases, so then all who are drawn will be raised, and therefore will come.

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              What I meant is that someone could be drawn but not come to Jesus. Reject the Holy Spirit.

                              So no-one can come unless drawn, but once drawn, they still have free will to refuse.

                              John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by FarEastBird, 09-02-2020, 11:39 AM
                              83 responses
                              568 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post footwasher  
                              Started by lee_merrill, 06-29-2020, 06:29 PM
                              219 responses
                              2,337 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post footwasher  
                              Started by Esther, 08-30-2019, 12:42 PM
                              72 responses
                              11,033 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post footwasher  
                              Working...
                              X