Can't Even Liberals Agree That This Is Immoral?

[Jaecp]

Well that is a clarifying point. The "charges" are estimates and in many cases they do make a small profit. The video makes that clear although they don't refer to it as profit.

If they are estimated, then they'll lose money sometimes as well. Either way, it doesn't matter. The only money being exchanged is for the express purpose of s&h

[Jaecp]

Well you are completely uninformed then. Or way behind the times. Unborn babies are human beings. They are beings and that's a scientific fact. They are a particular kind of being. That kind of being = human.

You don't even understand the question. Is it wrong to kill the unborn (human beings) and harvest their organs like heart, lungs, livers, muscle, head, brain, and process those body parts to organizations that do in fact sell a product made from those human body parts?

And spare me the "help the living" nonsense. You are killing a helpless baby yet unborn to help the "living?" The unborn are living human beings. That is why this issue has not died down since 73 and it never will.

Repeating your core beliefs while acting as though it's a settled question, and without addressing the point Jim made in 52, isn't just wrong, but pointless. Learn how to have a discussion :/

[Papa Zoom]

Repeating your core beliefs while acting as though it's a settled question, and without addressing the point Jim made in 52, isn't just wrong, but pointless. Learn how to have a discussion :/

I wasn't responding to 52.

[Papa Zoom]

The question is not whether a fetus is human in nature, it is, the question is whether or not a fetus is a human being. A piece of dandruff from my scalp is human, but it isn't a human being.

[Jaecp]

I wasn't responding to 52.

It's another comment he made, one which answered you already about the difference between human and person.

If you're going to talk down to people for being "completely uninformed" it would behoove you to respond to all of what they say, especially the points where they've already responded to your points before you make them

None of this matters with respect to personhood discussions. Perhaps you should go read up on the actual arguments about personhood before you come in posting a bunch of irrelevant biology 101 info.

[JimL]

Well you are completely uninformed then. Or way behind the times. Unborn babies are human beings. They are beings and that's a scientific fact. They are a particular kind of being. That kind of being = human.

Yeah, obviously unborn babies are human beings, but fetus's are not beings.

You don't even understand the question. Is it wrong to kill the unborn (human beings) and harvest their organs like heart, lungs, livers, muscle, head, brain, and process those body parts to organizations that do in fact sell a product made from those human body parts?

No, your specific post had to do with the selling of fetal material for medical research.

And spare me the "help the living" nonsense. You are killing a helpless baby yet unborn to help the "living?" The unborn are living human beings. That is why this issue has not died down since 73 and it never will.

I suppose it never will, but not until the day comes when I see that the pro-lifers actually care about the living, will I take their concerns about what they believe to be unborn humans seriously.

[JimL]

Then explain this to us.

Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium,

How do I explain it? Look up the word "primordium."The most rudimentory form or stage of developement does not a being make.

[Cerebrum123]

*yawn*

One is being done for the sole purpose of acquiring the organs for financial benefit and in the other the procedure is being done anyway and then you have the option to donate or no where the party has no financial benefit.

These are two radically different situations and while I'm sure all your anti-abortion buddies are going to high five you for comparing it to the black market organ trade you've got to know its a stupid line of reasoning.

It's murdering a human being and harvesting their organs. No amount of rationalization changes that. The fact that people are trying to defend it is one of the dumbest, and sickest things I've seen in quite a while.

Financial benefit or not it's sick and wrong. They both murder innocent human beings, and both harvest their organs.

The question is not whether a fetus is human in nature, it is, the question is whether or not a fetus is a human being. A piece of dandruff from my scalp is human, but it isn't a human being.

That question has been answered, the baby is a human being, and has the full potential to live out a full life. Dandruff has no such capacity.

I'm done here. I've had my fill of this filth being defended. Anyone who is willing to defend murder will defend any kind of sickness.

[Jaecp]

It's murdering a human being and harvesting their organs. No amount of rationalization changes that. The fact that people are trying to defend it is one of the dumbest, and sickest things I've seen in quite a while.

Financial benefit or not it's sick and wrong. They both murder innocent human beings, and both harvest their organs.

No amount of false equivalences will change that in one case its a gang banger stealing organs for personal gain and in the other case it's someone voluntarily going into a clinic and then donating the tissue to biomedical research companies. The gulf between those situations is massive, even without getting into various side issues like primary reason vs secondary. It's not as though people are getting abortions with the express goal being donating the organs to a lab, they were going to get the abortion anyway

Perhaps the next time you enter into a discussion on abortion you can actually try and engage with the other side instead of repeating your core beliefs and then acting shocked and dismayed that others disagree with you.

[Jedidiah]

And spare me the "help the living" nonsense. You are killing a helpless baby yet unborn to help the "living?" The unborn are living human beings. That is why this issue has not died down since 73 and it never will.

Sacrifice of the innocent has been a practice in evil societies for as long as we have been "civilized." Often babies were sacrificed in hopes of good crops, good weather or other selfish and evil reasons. The practice in the US is exactly the same. Sacrifice of babies for purely selfish and evil reasons.

[Papa Zoom]

How do I explain it? Look up the word "primordium."The most rudimentory form or stage of developement does not a being make.

First I'd like to apologize for my first first post because it was an inappropriate way to enter into a discussion. I must have been in a mood. My tone was way off. Your reply was fair and matter of fact and demonstrated the kind of exchange I'm looking for.

Frankly I'm not sure how to proceed considering the question posed in the OP. We've entered into the definition of when life begins and what constitutes a human being.

In my view the definitions matter to the OP because if we are in fact talking about harvesting the organs of little human beings, then the question of morality is important. As to the term you suggested I look up, according to a previous post of mine there's this: "This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being." (Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2) So a zygote is a cell that is the beginning of a human being. Or said another way, a zygote is the primordium of a human being. Clearly this book on human embryology defines a zygote as the beginning of a human being. In the book, Thomistic Principles and Bioethics- Page 42 there is this: "At the very beginning of human life, the primary organ seems to be the nucleus of a one-celled human zygote, which provides the epigenetic primordium of a human being's brain and nervous system. " Since, "A primordium in embryology, is defined as an organ or tissue in its earliest recognizable stage of development," and most abortions take place well after this initial stage it seems clear that what we are talking about is a human being at a particular stage of development. What am I'm missing?

[mossrose]

Perhaps the next time you enter into a discussion on abortion you can actually try and engage with the other side instead of repeating your core beliefs and then acting shocked and dismayed that others disagree with you.

Go thou and do likewise.

[Bill the Cat]

The question is not whether a fetus is human in nature, it is, the question is whether or not a fetus is a human being. A piece of dandruff from my scalp is human, but it isn't a human being.

A piece of dandruff is only part of a human being. A fetus is a fully self-contained human being. Dandruff has no potential in and of itself to be anything other than a dead flake of skin cells. The fetus is part of the normal growth and development of an individual member of our species. Unlike the separate gametes that form the new member of this species, the embryo is a part of the growth and development cycle in and of itself. No other genetic material is required to enable it to grow into the next stage. It merely grows and develops, just like every other stage of a human being's existence.

[Bill the Cat]

Yeah, obviously unborn babies are human beings, but fetus's are not beings.

Thoroughly untrue. Not even a little bit true.

I suppose it never will, but not until the day comes when I see that the pro-lifers actually care about the living, will I take their concerns about what they believe to be unborn humans seriously.

You have evidence that we don't "care about the living"? And don't give me that crap about "why don't you adopt then?" which has nothing to do with "caring" about the living.

[Bill the Cat]

How do I explain it? Look up the word "primordium."The most rudimentory form or stage of developement does not a being make.

Yes it does.