Privilege

[Sam]

In light of this, why is it that race and gender are the only ones that seemingly matter?

For example, I am a white male, who also happens to not be terribly attractive. Using the same criteria for white and male privilege, the latter characteristic arguably places me at a disadvantage, but this disadvantage is seemingly irrelevant. In other words, I need to "check my privilege" because I am white and male, but people who are naturally attractive and thereby advantaged in society do not need to "check their privilege." It seems like a strange double standard to me.

Attractive people ought to "check their privilege." But it's much easier to demonstrate discrimination based on race or sex than attractiveness (and discrimination regarding the former groups has, historically, been considerably more brutal in aggregate). Unattractive people ought not be told to "get over it" or "suck it up" but there are limits to redressing wrongs and beauty does not lend itself to distinction as easily as race or sex does.

—Sam

[Cow Poke]

In light of this, why is it that race and gender are the only ones that seemingly matter?

I think because, traditionally, these were thought of as 'inherited and unchangeable" - you had no choice in being black or female. And these were more "binary" than "pretty" - "pretty" can be quite subjective.

[Zymologist]

Attractive people ought to "check their privilege." But it's much easier to demonstrate discrimination based on race or sex than attractiveness (and discrimination regarding the former groups has, historically, been considerably more brutal in aggregate). Unattractive people ought not be told to "get over it" or "suck it up" but there are limits to redressing wrongs and beauty does not lend itself to distinction as easily as race or sex does.

—Sam

So are you saying that nothing at all should be done about pretty privilege? I'm just trying to understand why this isn't even mentioned in our culture, whereas everyone everywhere has to check their white male privilege. Yes, that's hyperbole, but given our society's clear preference for attractive people, the inconsistency seems jarring to me.

[Cow Poke]

So are you saying that nothing at all should be done about pretty privilege?

Yup - "pretty" is glorified - if it wasn't for "pretty", Hollywood would never have existed.

[Zymologist]

Yup - "pretty" is glorified - if it wasn't for "pretty", Hollywood would never have existed.

To be clear, I don't think really anything should be done about it, and I don't actually have a problem with ordinary-looking people like myself being told to "get over it." (i.e., I ought not bemoan the fact that I'm not as ripped as the next guy, or whatever.) I'm just curious why this isn't more important to the liberals who seem very focused on race and gender privilege.

[Cow Poke]

To be clear, I don't think really anything should be done about it, and I don't actually have a problem with ordinary-looking people like myself being told to "get over it." (i.e., I ought not bemoan the fact that I'm not as ripped as the next guy, or whatever.) I'm just curious why this isn't more important to the liberals who seem very focused on race and gender privilege.

I get it!

[Sam]

So are you saying that nothing at all should be done about pretty privilege? I'm just trying to understand why this isn't even mentioned in our culture, whereas everyone everywhere has to check their white male privilege. Yes, that's hyperbole, but given our society's clear preference for attractive people, the inconsistency seems jarring to me.

It's mentioned, though maybe not highlighted as much as it deserves (though it wasreally

[Cerealman]

I thought this was kind of interesting...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3965[/ATTACH]

Bigger version http://i39.tinypic.com/2n7390k.png

Meh

[Cow Poke]

Meh

Don't talk to me in that tone of voice, young man!

[Joel]

Yes! Privilege does not come isolated. Privilege that accompanies white (so called) skin may be a part of one persons complex of privilege. Where you are physically located plays apart. Personality plays a part. Many things play a part. To isolate "white privilege" or "male privilege" is purely artificial, though for some coarse focused discussions they may be useful.

Worse than that: to isolate "white privilege" is racist. It attributes something to every white person, based on the color of their skin. Something that arguably is not true of every white person. Likewise to isolate "male privilege" is sexist.


The talk of "pretty" makes me think of how pretty people were forced to wear bags over their heads in the short story Harrison Bergeron, to force equality of opportunity. Better thinkers were prevented from thinking better, stronger people were made weaker, etc.
https://archive.org/stream/HarrisonB...geron_djvu.txt

[fm93]

I thought this was kind of interesting...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3965[/ATTACH]

Bigger version http://i39.tinypic.com/2n7390k.png

Good grief, Bill. Did you actually click the link yourself? Because, uh, there are some words there in the tags that I'm pretty sure aren't allowed on TWeb.

And on that note, I hope you didn't actually read it, because that graphic is so stupid that I'd be embarrassed if you read it and approved of it. To address some of the most egregious:

being able to take pride in your race without fear of persecution

Slogans like "black pride" exist because for a long time, black skin was considered dirty and shameful, and black people responded by affirming that to the contrary, blackness is not a symbol of shame. Consequently, "white pride" is dumb because white skin has never been considered dirty and shameful in this country; it's always been considered the norm, something honorable. It's nonsensical to reverse a stigma of shame when there never was a stigma of shame. Some people with fair skin were mistreated on a widescale level, but those were always cases of "I hate those people because they're Irish/Italian," not "I hate those people because they're white." So it's perfectly fine to have Irish pride or Italian pride without fear of "persecution" or being labeled racist. It's just that "white pride" is incoherent.

Also, people who use slogans like "white pride" don't face persecution--at worst, they're just labeled racist and maybe shunned by others, because basically the only people who use it are KKK and Stormfront members, but that's far from having rights stripped away and legally being considered second-class.

people assume you are poor because of racism, not because you're lazy

I don't know what people this person's been around; I have never seen anyone who thinks all poor white people live in poverty due to laziness, nor have I seen anyone who thinks all poor black people live in poverty due to racism. There are a variety of factors for poverty, but it's at least possible that some black people are poor partially because of anti-black racism, while it's virtually impossible that some white people are poor because of anti-white racism. That's not an imposed double-standard; that's just fact.

being able to commit violent crimes against another race without people thinking you're racist

This is just clueless. People are certainly aware that black people can be hateful towards members of other races.

having the media cover up your race in the event of a black flash mob or gruesome murder

And this is just patently false. You virtually always see a suspect's race in the event of a gruesome murder. That's precisely how the stereotype that black people are likely to be violent criminals came to be.

when people consider you to be superior at sports or better in bed without it being considered racist

Deeply ignorant. These are technically positive attributes, but fetishizing a race absolutely DOES qualify as racism. Just look at foudroyant's disgusting old threads about going to Asia to get away from "rights-obsessed" Western women and pick up submissive Asian women who never complain about anything.

having the government pander to your interests in order to get the black vote

Stunningly short-sighted, since the government ultimately panders to every group's interests during election season to get votes.

having Hollywood always present your race in a positive light

I mean, does this person even live in this universe? Hollywood hardly "always presents black people in a positive light." Just look at the common trope of black characters being among the first to die in horror movies, or black characters not being particularly well developed and existing just to fulfill a role, or Ridley Scott making the protagonists of a movie set in ancient Egypt all white, while every antagonist was portrayed by a person of color.


So, yeah. That graphic was stupid. The creator is probably the type of person who thinks unattractive women in our society are in a privileged position compared to attractive women because ugly women are less likely to be raped. Or that poor people are privileged because robbers will target the wealthy instead.

[fm93]

Worse than that: to isolate "white privilege" is racist. It attributes something to every white person, based on the color of their skin. Something that arguably is not true of every white person. Likewise to isolate "male privilege" is sexist.

I disagree. Every man has male privilege in the sense of not ever having to worry about getting pregnant and experiencing those physically tolling nine months, or dealing with messy periods and painful menstrual cramps. The concept of male privilege attributes something to every male person, based on the presence of certain genitalia, but it makes no sense to claim that this is sexist. It's objective fact.

Or have I misunderstood you somehow?

The talk of "pretty" makes me think of how pretty people were forced to wear bags over their heads in the short story Harrison Bergeron, to force equality of opportunity. Better thinkers were prevented from thinking better, stronger people were made weaker, etc.
https://archive.org/stream/HarrisonB...geron_djvu.txt

"Harrison Bergeron" is indeed a well-articulated warning against playing to the lowest common denominator. That's why efforts to achieve equality should primarily be focused on lifting up those who are in disadvantaged positions. But I'm sure Kurt Vonnegut would agree that it'd be silly if the people who were attractive and strong started complaining about the fact that people were trying to uplift the disadvantaged but not the already advantaged. Or if the already advantaged started making dumb graphics trying to argue that the disadvantaged were actually the advantaged.

[Cow Poke]

I disagree. Every man has male privilege in the sense of...

I thought you were going for "the whole world being our urinal".

[Jedidiah]

So are you saying that nothing at all should be done about pretty privilege? I'm just trying to understand why this isn't even mentioned in our culture, whereas everyone everywhere has to check their white male privilege. Yes, that's hyperbole, but given our society's clear preference for attractive people, the inconsistency seems jarring to me.

I think overly attractive people should undergo plastic surgery to eliminate the problem.

[Cow Poke]

I think overly attractive people should undergo plastic surgery to eliminate the problem.

OK, I'll call and make an appointment to see a surgeon.