Originally posted by Paprika
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Convince Me That I Should Buy "Fair Trade" Goods
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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Originally posted by Jesse View PostNo you can't. Because it only connects to other "Fair Trade" phone users. And who really wants to talk to hipsters all day?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Jesse View PostYou really shouldn't. Almost everything from the beginning of human history that has been made, was tied to bad conditions. Of course "bad conditions" is relative really. None of this really matters in the long run. I also have a selfish interest in this. I don't want to see a bunch of naked people running around and clogging up the streets because they found out where all of their clothes and cars where made.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostSo slavery matters not. Neither does child labour. Nor wanton destruction of the environment.
Originally posted by Paprika View PostIndeed, and hasn't the free trade movement managed to motivate many of them to do so?Originally posted by Paprika View PostYou might want to look up the implementation of fair trade which I mentioned earlier. That is one possible route.Originally posted by Paprika View PostI'll add something: there needs to be a change in purchasing habits.
Ceteris paribus, the business owner who is greedy is generally able to price goods at a lower price. So if purchasers go for the lower priced goods, who are they incentivising? Ergo the concept of fair trade.
(I noticed you said "free trade" in the second quote, then seemed to refer to it later as fair trade... was that an error, or were you talking about something totally different?)Last edited by Cow Poke; 10-23-2014, 01:33 PM.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Jesse View PostWow. You sure did put a lot of buzz words in there. You think you might have missed a few? The point really is, why do you care? You really think not buying these products stops anything? Has it ever? Would it ever? The answer to both of those questions is no. You are talking about not buying a product because it came from a country you disapprove of. Do you know how lazy that sort of activism is? You are trying to do the very least that you can, while patting yourself on the back.
If you're done trying to read my mind, perhaps you might want to put out those strawmen. Then we can talk.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSo, I'm asking you to show where "Fair Trade" really makes any difference at all... that's what this thread is about. You seem to be a proponent of "Fair Trade"...
(I noticed you said "free trade" in the second quote, then seemed to refer to it later as fair trade... was that an error, or were you talking about something totally different?)
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostAnd as I've explained, I'm not going to do your googling for you.
It is an error: for some reason I tend to type "free trade" instead of "fair trade". You may edit it if it bothers you.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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From what I read in some of those links in the other thread, Fair Trade mostly helps producers, not workers. Why would I care about producers who pay their labor less than others?Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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OK, Pap.... lemme try this one more time...
Here, Spart is making the case for profits to "serve people".
Originally posted by Spartacus View PostIt starts by seeing the economy primarily as something that's supposed to serve human needs rather than something whose needs we must fill by our labor. Or, as I said before, businesses exist to participate in the common good. A business owner seeks profit only insofar as it helps to sustain the business, which also includes providing for the needs of employees. A business owner might ask those who benefit from the goods or services he provides to compensate him at a rate which will allow him to continue providing those goods or services. In other words, a business owner makes a product, charges consumers for it, and pays his employees. In a lot of ways, it doesn't look all that different from what we already have, but profits are made to serve people rather than the other way around.
Originally posted by Paprika View PostI'll add something: there needs to be a change in purchasing habits.
Ceteris paribus, the business owner who is greedy is generally able to price goods at a lower price. So if purchasers go for the lower priced goods, who are they incentivising? Ergo the concept of fair trade.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostHow do you propose getting consumers to pay MORE for things they can get for less?
Originally posted by Paprika View PostYou might want to look up the implementation of fair trade which I mentioned earlier. That is one possible route.
But to your suggestion that I look it up, I reply...
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostNo, I really don't. Poor people really don't care about 'fair trade' - they care about the bottom dollar. When you have a limited amount of money, you're glad to be able to buy more for less.
Originally posted by Paprika View PostIndeed, but what about those who can afford to do so?
Now, am I SERIOUSLY to belive you are not advocating "fair trade" as a solution to the actual topic at hand, but you are simply demonstrating a way to get people to pay more money for something?
But you continue....
Originally posted by Paprika View PostIndeed, and hasn't the free trade movement managed to motivate many of them to do so?
You asked how I propose to get consumers to pay more for things they can get for less. As is clear from the fair trade movement, it is certainly possible to do so. And you answer your own question: there needs to be an motivation that will outweigh the motivation to go for the cheaper product.
You're claiming you ONLY offered "fair trade" as a way to get people to pay more money for goods? Heck, TRICKERY AND DECEIT can do that!
So --- let me ask a direct question, since YOU brought up fair trade....
Do you, or do you not, think that it actually "benefits the poor", or, in Spart's words... "serves people"?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOK, Pap.... lemme try this one more time...
Do you, or do you not, think that it actually "benefits the poor", or, in Spart's words... "serves people"?
The context as I took it was Zymologist asking Spartacus to describe an economic solution to avarice and its contemporary idolisation. What Spartacus said addressed business owners; my contribution was to sketch out one change in praxis for the other major party: the purchasers.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostIs that an admission that the main intention of this thread was to corner me?
I don't know and it is irrelevant to my point.
The context as I took it was Zymologist asking Spartacus to describe an economic solution to avarice and its contemporary idolisation. What Spartacus said addressed business owners; my contribution was to sketch out one change in praxis for the other major party: the purchasers.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Paprika View Post
If you're done trying to read my mind, perhaps you might want to put out those strawmen. Then we can talk."Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAll kidding aside, in the grand scale of things, all it really does is make the discriminating buyer "feel better"."Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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Originally posted by Jesse View PostHeh. You give me too much credit. It's actually called a "cold reading". I don't need to be psychic to read what is on your mind. Your talking points where all I needed.
Are you sure you know what a straw man argument is? If so, could you point out where I used it?
"You are talking about not buying a product because it came from a country you disapprove of."
"You are trying to do the very least that you can, while patting yourself on the back."Last edited by Paprika; 10-24-2014, 06:05 AM.
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