Fanning the flames?

[CivilDiscourse]

Correction. She was not prohibited from silently praying. The issue revolved around where she chose to silently pray.

Oh, so you are saying that had these college protestors merely moved a "few yards" away there wouldn't be a problem.

For balance what is your position on the trespass and damage to property that occurred at the Capitol on January 6th 2021?

Same as it has ever been. Prosecute them for that. I've always called it a riot.

I know you and others here like to make blanket comparisons and generalisations but a group standing with placards on the street near an abortion clinic is not exactly the same as a discussion on controversial issues where opposing views are expressed.

It sounds like you are trying to make a distinction where none exists. Expound how one protest is meaningfully different than the other.

This is where academic freedom has been skewed. That was raised in another article in The New Yorker by Professor Suk Gersen in January this year. Suk Gersen is based at Harvard Law School and in that January piece she commented that in 2014 she wrote an article for the magazine that was:

about students’ suggestions (then shocking to me) that rape law should not be taught in the criminal-law course, because debates involving arguments for defendants, in addition to the prosecution, caused distress. At the very least, some students said, nobody should be asked in class to argue a side with which they disagree. Since then, students have asked me to excuse them from discussing or being examined on guns, gang violence, domestic violence, the death penalty, L.G.B.T.Q. issues, police brutality, kidnapping, suicide, and abortion. I have declined, because I believe the most important skill I teach is the ability to have rigorous exchanges on difficult topics, but professors across the country have agreed to similar requests. https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-w...ademic-freedom

From the UK . Prof David Miller was dismissed from his post at Bristol university in 2021 for allegedly making anti-Semitic remarks. He appealed and won his case. Prof Kathleen Stock eventually resigned from the University of Sussex after students called for her dismissal over her comments on transgender rights and gender identification. And a lecture in December 2019 by a visiting academic, Joe Phoenix , a professor criminology with the Open University that was to be given at Essex University was eventually cancelled. The lecture was looking at trans rights in prison; however, activity by students and staff alleging that a "transphobe" would be on the campus led to that decision. So one dismissal, one forced resignation, and a lecture cancelled.

UK stuff? We aren't talking about that...

You appear to be advocating suppressing peaceful protests and curbing free speech at universities..

How so? It seems like you would be agreeing with them given you support arresting silent prayers.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I got it from an interview he did.

http://www.ohioana.org/wp-content/up...-OQ-2022-1.pdf

Broome is not "gay", Broome is "queer" in that the latter has a political implication per queer theory. One can be gay but not queer.

Where did you get your notions about queer theory from that interview?

His work is about him as a gay black boy growing up and the issues and problems he faced.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Oh, so you are saying that had these college protestors merely moved a "few yards" away there wouldn't be a problem.

From where did you obtain that notion?

Same as it has ever been. Prosecute them for that. I've always called it a riot.

Thank you for that.

It sounds like you are trying to make a distinction where none exists. Expound how one protest is meaningfully different than the other.

Do we have to dig up another proverbial decomposing body? Vaughan Spruce and her group had been regularly picketing/protesting outside the clinic. Residents, staff, and clients were tired of her group's presence for a variety of reasons. A questionnaire was sent out by the council and the overwhelming majority of respondents supported the introduction of a PSPO.

UK stuff? We aren't talking about that...

You introduced an incident outside of the USA.

I would also point out that academia and the concept of academic freedom extends beyond the USA.

How so? It seems like you would be agreeing with them given you support arresting silent prayers.

To repeat.

Violent protest is not my own first choice but when avenues for rational debate are denied or closed down. Or when senior university officials take a partisan approach. Or when a university president brings in the NYPD to arrest peaceful demonstrators, and the NYPD Commissioner stated that those arrested at Columbia week or so ago were peaceful. Then some will feel there is no alternative.

And protest is not in and of itself a crime in your country.

[Juvenal]

But did you ever read Beyond Good and Evil and the Prince one after another when you were 11? Because you wanted to?

Personally, I'd advice against doing so.

You should have thought of that before organizing the ninja squirrels.

[CivilDiscourse]

From where did you obtain that notion?

Well, that was the excuse you gave for her speech not being violated.

Thank you for that.

Do we have to dig up another proverbial decomposing body? Vaughan Spruce and her group had been regularly picketing/protesting outside the clinic. Residents, staff, and clients were tired of her group's presence for a variety of reasons. A questionnaire was sent out by the council and the overwhelming majority of respondents supported the introduction of a PSPO.

So...you are saying that she made people....uncomfortable

You introduced an incident outside of the USA.

So, what does that academic freedom have to do with protests where people are committing crimes?

I would also point out that academia and the concept of academic freedom extends beyond the USA.

Yes, but you question seemed to imply that these crime-committing protests should somehow have an impact on my view of academic freedom. You haven't really clarified how that is supposed to work.

To repeat.

Violent protest is not my own first choice but when avenues for rational debate are denied or closed down. Or when senior university officials take a partisan approach. Or when a university president brings in the NYPD to arrest peaceful demonstrators, and the NYPD Commissioner stated that those arrested at Columbia week or so ago were peaceful. Then some will feel there is no alternative.

So are you switching to Amnesty now for those committing crimes.

And protest is not in and of itself a crime in your country.

No. However, Reasonable time/place/manner restrictions can cause even a peaceful protest to run-afowl of the law. I would think you would support that given that you feel that silent prayer in a PSPO area is worthy of arrest.

[Juvenal]

Considering the discussion the assignment apparently spawned, I think the professor's intent was clear.

Here's what we know of the discussion the assignment spawned.
.

One day, as we discussed an essay by the gay humorist and author David Sedaris, a student in the back of the class raised his hand. He said that he related to the essay because he and his boyfriend had been through a similar experience. He paused for a long moment before he said “boyfriend.”

This was an announcement. Every student in the class turned to look at him. They turned to him to see whether his announcement had turned him into something new. Something to be feared. They turned to me to see how I would react. When I did not, they let it go. A few days later, another student introduced her girlfriend into the discussion. Announcements such as these don’t happen in high school.

I don't want to speak for you on this. What intent on the part of the professor do you read from this, and how does it relate to indoctrination, if you believe it does.

[rogue06]

It shows the individual has retained some information about the person. Furthermore, given the length of the initial thread about Ms Vaughan Spruce and your repeated comments endorsing and supporting her cause, one supposes that you might have made the effort to remember her name.

That's a lot of words for what could have been said in three: "No. It doesn't"

[rogue06]

You should have thought of that before organizing the ninja squirrels.

They were already organized by Master Po when they made their existence known to me.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

That's a lot of words for what could have been said in three: "No. It doesn't"

It surprised me that in the course of at least two threads on Ms Vaughan Spruce and about whom you have expressed so much support you referred to her "the woman".

[CivilDiscourse]

It surprised me that in the course of at least two threads on Ms Vaughan Spruce and about whom you have expressed so much support you referred to her "the woman".

It appears to me that you are trying to start up a random argument.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Well, that was the excuse you gave for her speech not being violated.

Perhaps you are also suffering from short term memory issues. The issue was about where Ms Vaughan Spruce chose to silently pray/stand.

So...you are saying that she made people....uncomfortable

Her group had protested for year outside the clinic prior to the PSPO and was considered to be a public nuisance. Blocking access to a public facility is illegal and accosting individuals going into or coming out that facility is both intimidatory and harassment. .After consultation the PSPO was introduced. However, Ms Vaughan Spruce decided to continue her lone silent protest/prayer.

So, what does that academic freedom have to do with protests where people are committing crimes?

The original tent camp at Columbia was not committing a crime. It was a peaceful protest.

Yes, but you question seemed to imply that these crime-committing protests should somehow have an impact on my view of academic freedom. You haven't really clarified how that is supposed to work.

Academic freedom permits the rational discussion of controversial topics.

In recent years. as that extract I cited earlier from Suk Gersen's January article made clear, students have requested exemption from discussions on topics about which they feel uncomfortable or which may cause them distress. and some academics have, in my opinion, very foolishly complied with those requests. The present Gazan war makes it very difficult for educators in both schools and at HE to discuss the topic without drawing ire from one side or the other. This from Canada.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...lash-1.7184780

A group of teachers has successfully campaigned for the B.C. Teachers' Federation to lobby the government to include the history of Palestinians in the provincial curriculum.The proposal has drawn backlash from members of the Jewish community, who say the move is problematic and "one sided." [...] Teachers 4 Palestine, a group born in the wake of the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas that includes teachers of different faiths and backgrounds, was behind the motion. Tara Ehrcke, a Jewish high school teacher in Victoria who is involved with Teachers 4 Palestine, said the topic was "noticeably absent" from the curriculum.

An article here https://publicintegrity.org/educatio...y-free-speech/ deals with an incident in the USA

the University of Arizona suspended two education professors who implied during a class lecture that Hamas is not a terrorist organization. Audio recordings of the comments went viral on social media. After weeks of student and faculty protests, the university reinstated the pair.

That same site noted in another article that a professor in Texas was suspended merely for criticising the lieutenant governor in a lecture!

Such incidents are a cause for concern for anyone who values academic freedom or indeed free speech.

And other articles note that lines are being drawn on campuses in other countries.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/...ls-war-in-gaza

Students of the Sciences Po university in Paris occupied parts of the institution and blocked entry to a building last week before riot police descended on campus.
On Saturday, Prime Minister Gabriel Attal, who like President Emmanuel Macron is among the university’s notable alumni, said his government “would not tolerate the actions of a dangerously acting minority trying to impose its rules and an ideology coming from North America”, following the three-day blockade at the prestigious school.
On Monday, undeterred by the threat of police action, antiwar protesters at the renowned Sorbonne University demonstrated on campus, setting up tents, chanting and waving the Palestinian flag.
Valerie Pecresse, president of the Ile-de-France region in which Paris is situated, has announced that the region’s funding for Sciences Po Paris will be cut until “serenity and security are restored in the school”.
As well as an end to Israel’s war, they called on their university to cut ties with Israeli institutions and other businesses they see as complicit in the war in Gaza that has to date killed about 34,500 Palestinians, mostly children and women.

So are you switching to Amnesty now for those committing crimes.

I do not think some of the policies towards student protesters will be viewed as appropriate or just when these present events are assessed in the future and I wonder if some of them have more than a hint of a knee-jerk reaction.

No. However, Reasonable time/place/manner restrictions can cause even a peaceful protest to run-afowl of the law. I would think you would support that given that you feel that silent prayer in a PSPO area is worthy of arrest.

Amusing typo - running afowl conjures images of headless chickens.

However, that depends on the law and the country. Unlike the USA the UK does not have a written constitution that enshrines the right to peaceful protest and a PSPO is not in and of itself, a law. It is an order that may be introduced by a council to deal with persistent anti-social behaviour in a specific area which is deemed detrimental, or a nuisance, to the surrounding community's quality of life. University campus protests do not come under such orders.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

It appears to me that you are trying to start up a random argument.

I am merely amused that given his repeated support for Vaughan Spruce rogue06 still refers to her as "the woman"

[CivilDiscourse]

I am merely amused that given his repeated support for Vaughan Spruce rogue06 still refers to her as "the woman"

Be amused. I'm going no further down that (likely intentional) attempt to start a side argument over a triviality....I believe you are losing whatever argument was there and you are looking for a distraction.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Be amused. I'm going no further down that (likely intentional) attempt to start a side argument over a triviality....I believe you are losing whatever argument was there and you are looking for a distraction.

You commented on a side exchange between myself and rogue06! Nobody asked you to do so!

Or is this a way of not addressing my most recent direct reply to you?

[CivilDiscourse]

Perhaps you are also suffering from short term memory issues. The issue was about where Ms Vaughan Spruce chose to silently pray/stand.

And...Much of what's been done here has been because of where these people "chose to" protest. They could have protested elsewhere, they chose a campus, where they were not allowed to protest in the manner given.

Her group had protested for year outside the clinic prior to the PSPO and was considered to be a public nuisance. Blocking access to a public facility is illegal and accosting individuals going into or coming out that facility is both intimidatory and harassment. .After consultation the PSPO was introduced. However, Ms Vaughan Spruce decided to continue her lone silent protest/prayer.

And? Again, a public nuisance is just another way of saying "uncomfortable" which you so aptly pointed out, isn't a reason to stop speech. You are just being a hypocrite.

The original tent camp at Columbia was not committing a crime. It was a peaceful protest.

Silent prayer is a peaceful protest. You youself (below) argue that the PSPO isn't a law, so she wasn't breaking the law....(Unless you want to argue that violating a PSPO is violating the law, which, defacto makes a PSPO a law).

Also, once they camped overnight, against school policy, and were asked to no longer do that, then they trespassed, breaking the law, even if they were peaceful.

A larger distinction is, as you so clearly spelled out above, was that the PSPO was DESIGNED FROM THE BEGINNING to stop the protests, specifically the protest centered around opposing abortion, whereas the policies violated at Columbia were not designed with stopping Anti-Israel protests, but were general policies long in place designed to ensure schools could continue to teach.

Academic freedom permits the rational discussion of controversial topics.

In recent years. as that extract I cited earlier from Suk Gersen's January article made clear, students have requested exemption from discussions on topics about which they feel uncomfortable or which may cause them distress. and some academics have, in my opinion, very foolishly complied with those requests. The present Gazan war makes it very difficult for educators in both schools and at HE to discuss the topic without drawing ire from one side or the other. This from Canada.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...lash-1.7184780

A group of teachers has successfully campaigned for the B.C. Teachers' Federation to lobby the government to include the history of Palestinians in the provincial curriculum.The proposal has drawn backlash from members of the Jewish community, who say the move is problematic and "one sided." [...] Teachers 4 Palestine, a group born in the wake of the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas that includes teachers of different faiths and backgrounds, was behind the motion. Tara Ehrcke, a Jewish high school teacher in Victoria who is involved with Teachers 4 Palestine, said the topic was "noticeably absent" from the curriculum.

An article here https://publicintegrity.org/educatio...y-free-speech/ deals with an incident in the USA

the University of Arizona suspended two education professors who implied during a class lecture that Hamas is not a terrorist organization. Audio recordings of the comments went viral on social media. After weeks of student and faculty protests, the university reinstated the pair.

That same site noted in another article that a professor in Texas was suspended merely for criticising the lieutenant governor in a lecture!

Such incidents are a cause for concern for anyone who values academic freedom or indeed free speech.

And other articles note that lines are being drawn on campuses in other countries.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/...ls-war-in-gaza

Students of the Sciences Po university in Paris occupied parts of the institution and blocked entry to a building last week before riot police descended on campus.
On Saturday, Prime Minister Gabriel Attal, who like President Emmanuel Macron is among the university’s notable alumni, said his government “would not tolerate the actions of a dangerously acting minority trying to impose its rules and an ideology coming from North America”, following the three-day blockade at the prestigious school.
On Monday, undeterred by the threat of police action, antiwar protesters at the renowned Sorbonne University demonstrated on campus, setting up tents, chanting and waving the Palestinian flag.
Valerie Pecresse, president of the Ile-de-France region in which Paris is situated, has announced that the region’s funding for Sciences Po Paris will be cut until “serenity and security are restored in the school”.
As well as an end to Israel’s war, they called on their university to cut ties with Israeli institutions and other businesses they see as complicit in the war in Gaza that has to date killed about 34,500 Palestinians, mostly children and women.

[/QUOTE]

So, none of that has to do with the campus protest encampments, or academic freedom WRT them. You are struggling here. You are trying to introduce a non-sequitor here.

I do not think some of the policies towards student protesters will be viewed as appropriate or just when these present events are assessed in the future and I wonder if some of them have more than a hint of a knee-jerk reaction.

Are you saying that the college and police should ignore their crimes...provide them amnesty?

Amusing typo - running afowl conjures images of headless chickens.

However, that depends on the law and the country. Unlike the USA the UK does not have a written constitution that enshrines the right to peaceful protest and a PSPO is not in and of itself, a law. It is an order that may be introduced by a council to deal with persistent anti-social behaviour in a specific area which is deemed detrimental, or a nuisance, to the surrounding community's quality of life. University campus protests do not come under such orders.

You are really trying to split hairs here. "PSPO isn't a law" is a distinction without a meaning. Violating a PSPO is a criminal offense. So, a PSPO is a rule which, when violated, results in a criminal offense. That is, for all intents and purposes, a law, even if you want to give it a different label, but it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck. I'll call it a duck.