O�Rourke: Churches Should Lose Tax-exempt Status

[KingsGambit]

Yep, which is why killing people to solve your problem is stupid, whether individual or collective.

Sorry, but demi does have a point here...

[JimL]

And what do you know about morality Jim?

I know that it's about the best interests of human beings living together in society and not about an objective authoritative source.

[JimL]

Sorry, but demi does have a point here...

So, the question then is who's right, Tea or god?

[KingsGambit]

So, the question then is who's right, Tea or god?

I don't think it's either/or. It's perfectly consistent to think that capital punishment served an important function in a collective society but isn't as good of an option in an individualistic society. What isn't an option for Christians (Teal didn't do this but I have seen some Christians do it) is to say that capital punishment is inherently immoral.

[seer]

I know that it's about the best interests of human beings living together in society and not about an objective authoritative source.

Really and how do you know that God's law is not for the best interest of human society, in this world and the next?

[Cow Poke]

So, the question then is who's right, Tea or god?

Let God be true, and every Tea a liar!!!!
Romans 3:4

[demi-conservative]

I don't think it's either/or. It's perfectly consistent to think that capital punishment served an important function in a collective society but isn't as good of an option in an individualistic society.

It's an increasingly tedious excuse to handwave away anything that doesn't comport with modern assumptions and practices, saying 'our society is different, and we know better'. Tedious because it's obvious you care much more about what the world thinks about such matters.

[Tassman]

There you go again! What is civilized in your relative world?

Same as in your world minus the cherry-picked bits from the bible that justify your

And some would call the death penalty justice.

Most Western nations call the death penalty petty vindictiveness.

And there is a clear deterrent - that person will NEVER murder or rape again. Whether in society or in the prison population.

There is no credible evidence that the death penalty deters crime. Quite the reverse. Since abolishing the death penalty in 1976, Canada's murder rate has steadily declined and as of 2016 was at its lowest since 1966. This in marked contrast to the US which retains the death penalty.

https://www.amnesty.ca/news/canada-m...-death-penalty

We agree, sometimes killing our fellow man is a moral good, even if we find value in their lives as humans.

It is preferable to prevent such situations escalating in the first place. E.g. the punitive Versailles Treaty after WWI virtually guaranteed the rise of a dictator like Hitler in order to restore German prosperity and national pride which had been so devastated by the Treaty.

Right, as a Christian, me and my Church help the poor daily - so what is your point? And Socialism tends towards more and more central control, at the expense of individual liberty.

And I'm not sure where in the West unfettered capitalism exists.

The USA is pretty close to unfettered capitalism. It also has one of the highest levels of social inequity in the West.

Then let them show me their Scripture that backs their case up. I can show you mine.

No doubt. Just as those denying female emancipation, slave-ownership and witch-killing could show you the scriptures that supported their positions. Biblical interpretation is very flexible when it comes to social mores.

Do you deny that the abolition movement was spearheaded by Christians?

The institution of slavery in the US was instigated by Christians in the first place. If not for them there would have been no need for the abolition movement. Not that it did the abolitionists much good in the Deep South.

So what? Does awareness suddenly impute value to the human that it didn't have before? Why? According to whom?

[seer]

Same as in your world minus the cherry-picked bits from the bible that justify your

What is your point Tass, in your world no set of social norms is superior to another set of norms. And Peter is not condoning or condemning slavery, he is just dealing with the fact of slavery and how Christians should relate to those who have authority over us.

Most Western nations call the death penalty petty vindictiveness.

And why are they right?

There is no credible evidence that the death penalty deters crime. Quite the reverse. Since abolishing the death penalty in 1976, Canada's murder rate has steadily declined and as of 2016 was at its lowest since 1966. This in marked contrast to the US which retains the death penalty.

This is a lie, like I said the death penalty prevents that individual from ever raping or murdering again, that works 100% of the time. Whether in society or in the prison population. Your link is not dealing with that point. And you have no experience with prison populations, I do. And the most dangerous prisoners according the Correction Officers I dealt with are "lifers" - murderers and serial rapists.



.

That is just silly. Every dollar you take out of ones pocket for your social programs is that much less freedom for the individual. In other words you reduce his buying power and liberty, giving more power to the state for control. And who said that happiness is the goal?

The USA is pretty close to unfettered capitalism. It also has one of the highest levels of social inequity in the West.

Nonsense it is not unfettered, and yes freedom produces inequity. Perhaps you prefer Communism, then we could all be equally poor.

No doubt. Just as those denying female emancipation, slave-ownership and witch-killing could show you the scriptures that supported their positions. Biblical interpretation is very flexible when it comes to social mores.

The fact is there is no justification for homosexual behavior in Scripture, it clearly condemns it.

The institution of slavery in the US was instigated by Christians in the first place. If not for them there would have been no need for the abolition movement. Not that it did the abolitionists much good in the Deep South.

Another falsehood, slavery was a fact long before we had it in the US, even native Americans practiced it long before the white man showed up. And many Muslims still practice it today. The fact is Tass slavery was accepted in many different cultures long before any Christians became involved. So I will ask again:Do you deny that the abolition movement was spearheaded by Christians?



So no abortions after 24 weeks?

[JimL]

Really and how do you know that God's law is not for the best interest of human society, in this world and the next?

How do you know that a god exists or has a law? You don't! Nor would you know what his laws are anyway. All I know is that the laws we adopt, we adopt because we see them as serving our best interests as a human community.

[Cow Poke]

How do you know that a god exists or has a law? You don't! All I know is that the laws we adopt, we adopt because we see them as serving our best interests as a human community.

Actually, we have a Judeo-Christian heritage from which came English Common Law.

Our entire legal system evolved from that.

[seer]

How do you know that a god exists or has a law? You don't! Nor would you know what his laws are anyway. All I know is that the laws we adopt, we adopt because we see them as serving our best interests as a human community.

Jim, we have God's laws in the New Testament, so they are not a mystery. But the point is you have no idea what is best for society since you can not know what the ultimate end would be. We are not omniscient, only God could see the long term consequences of the laws we adopt. We are shooting in the dark.

[Teallaura]

Describing God as 'stupid' should give the Christian pause.

Ah, back to being your old moron self, I see...

[Teallaura]

Sorry, but demi does have a point here...

No, he does not. I NEVER, EVER USE THE SMALL CASE WHEN REFERRING TO GOD and you (personal) darn well know it!

'You', in the quote, is in the general referring to both death penalty and abortion proponents. Only a moron would have trouble figuring that out.

[Teallaura]

So, the question then is who's right, Tea or god?

God is always right - but in this case you (general) can't read straight and you (personal) have been reading my posts for enough years to know A) I wouldn't make that implication and B) I NEVER use small case in reference to God. N-E-V-E-R.