Originally posted by Starlight
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Why I Voted For Trump...
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAnd yet you offered a "the biologists that I know"
Looking at a survey of scientists by Pew Research, my anecdotes were on the money. The vast majority of US scientists lean liberal rather than conservative:
Most [US] scientists identify as Democrats (55%), while 32% identify as independents and just 6% say they are Republicans. When the leanings of independents are considered, fully 81% [of US scientists] identify as Democrats or lean to the Democratic Party, compared with 12% [of US scientists] who either identify as Republicans or lean toward the GOP.
When they broke this down by scientific field, the "Biological and Medical" category was pretty close to identical to scientists as a whole:
So approximately, 8 in 10 scientists / biological & medical scientists are liberal, 1 in 10 are conservative, and 1 in 10 are neither.
Pew found the majority of scientists are aware of the strong liberal leanings of scientists as a whole:
most [US] scientists (56%) perceive the scientific community as politically liberal; just 2% think scientists are politically conservative. About four-in-ten scientists (42%)... [think] that scientists, as a group, are neither in particular.
So given, that finding, it is unsurprising that as a scientist I was able to accurately tell you that my scientific colleagues lean liberal. My anecdotes about NZ scientists were indeed generally representative of US scientists.
Amusingly, Pew found that almost two thirds of non-scientist Americans wrongly thought scientists were neither liberal nor conservative on the whole.
Pew notes that in various survey questions they asked, US scientists were much more pro-government, pro-equal-rights, anti-business, and anti-militaristic than the average US citizen. e.g.
Also only 33% of US scientists reported belief in God compared to 83% of the US public.
Pew does not appear to have specifically asked the scientists about their view as to whether abortion should be legal. But I think it's reasonable to infer their position on abortion policy given US biological and medical scientists leaned Democratic over Republican at an 8 to 1 ratio.Last edited by Starlight; 10-29-2019, 03:52 AM."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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I looked further into the guy's survey that CP linked, and as he reports elsewhere he did ask the biologists he surveyed whether they supported abortion and what their political leanings were. He found that the biologists he surveyed were 85% pro-choice, and of those who had political leanings, 92% of them were Democrat. So that's actually pretty close to the 8 to 1 ratio Pew found US biologists/scientists to have. It's also pretty much what I was describing I see in my own workplace among the biologists I work with.
So I guess an accurate summary of the findings of the guy CP linked to would be: The vast majority of biologists are pro-choice. The vast majority of biologists when asked when human life begins, say it begins at conception. This suggests that the vast majority of biologists don't think the question of when human life begins determines whether abortion should be legal.
...Which is what I have been telling you guys in this thread."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostIndeed, I was clear and upfront about what my source was and its quality.
Looking at a survey of scientists by Pew Research, my anecdotes were on the money. The vast majority of US scientists lean liberal rather than conservative:
Most [US] scientists identify as Democrats (55%), while 32% identify as independents and just 6% say they are Republicans. When the leanings of independents are considered, fully 81% [of US scientists] identify as Democrats or lean to the Democratic Party, compared with 12% [of US scientists] who either identify as Republicans or lean toward the GOP.
When they broke this down by scientific field, the "Biological and Medical" category was pretty close to identical to scientists as a whole:
So approximately, 8 in 10 scientists / biological & medical scientists are liberal, 1 in 10 are conservative, and 1 in 10 are neither.
Pew found the majority of scientists are aware of the strong liberal leanings of scientists as a whole:
most [US] scientists (56%) perceive the scientific community as politically liberal; just 2% think scientists are politically conservative. About four-in-ten scientists (42%)... [think] that scientists, as a group, are neither in particular.
So given, that finding, it is unsurprising that as a scientist I was able to accurately tell you that my scientific colleagues lean liberal. My anecdotes about NZ scientists were indeed generally representative of US scientists.
Amusingly, Pew found that almost two thirds of non-scientist Americans wrongly thought scientists were neither liberal nor conservative on the whole.
Pew notes that in various survey questions they asked, US scientists were much more pro-government, pro-equal-rights, anti-business, and anti-militaristic than the average US citizen. e.g.
Also only 33% of US scientists reported belief in God compared to 83% of the US public.
Pew does not appear to have specifically asked the scientists about their view as to whether abortion should be legal. But I think it's reasonable to infer their position on abortion policy given US biological and medical scientists leaned Democratic over Republican at an 8 to 1 ratio."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI looked further into the guy's survey that CP linked, and as he reports elsewhere he did ask the biologists he surveyed whether they supported abortion and what their political leanings were. He found that the biologists he surveyed were 85% pro-choice, and of those who had political leanings, 92% of them were Democrat. So that's actually pretty close to the 8 to 1 ratio Pew found US biologists/scientists to have. It's also pretty much what I was describing I see in my own workplace among the biologists I work with.
So I guess an accurate summary of the findings of the guy CP linked to would be: The vast majority of biologists are pro-choice. The vast majority of biologists when asked when human life begins, say it begins at conception. This suggests that the vast majority of biologists don't think the question of when human life begins determines whether abortion should be legal.
...Which is what I have been telling you guys in this thread."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostCriswell was a senior pastor in the Southern Baptist Convention
and his views on abortion vis-a-vis Roe v Wade were representative of the general view at the time among Evangelicals.
It was RvW that caused a deeper look at the issue, and the tide has changed. Stop living in the past, Tassy.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAnd yet you offered a "the biologists that I know"The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI looked further into the guy's survey that CP linked, and as he reports elsewhere he did ask the biologists he surveyed whether they supported abortion and what their political leanings were. He found that the biologists he surveyed were 85% pro-choice, and of those who had political leanings, 92% of them were Democrat. So that's actually pretty close to the 8 to 1 ratio Pew found US biologists/scientists to have. It's also pretty much what I was describing I see in my own workplace among the biologists I work with.
So I guess an accurate summary of the findings of the guy CP linked to would be: The vast majority of biologists are pro-choice. The vast majority of biologists when asked when human life begins, say it begins at conception. This suggests that the vast majority of biologists don't think the question of when human life begins determines whether abortion should be legal.
...Which is what I have been telling you guys in this thread.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostStar only associates with the 'right kind' of biologists.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View Posteven PRO-CHOICE biologists overwhelmingly agree that life begins at conception -- THEREFORE -- the narrative has to change
The biologists overwhelmingly agree that when life begins isn't relevant to the question of abortion: Those who know the SCIENCE are overwhelming are PRO-CHOICE. They also can factually answer the question that life begins at conception, the one having no bearing on the other.
Back in the day when the Romans were exposing unwanted infants, they weren't doing it because their lack of scientific knowledge made them not realize that the babies they were killing were alive. They perfectly well knew and could obviously see with their own eyes that the babies they were leaving out to die were alive, and did it anyway. Human cultures throughout history have typically been fine with the killing of fetuses or babies they believed/knew were a new human life. The question of whether the baby/fetus was 'alive' or a 'new human life' has never been the issue. And modern scientists agree it is not relevant to the political issue of abortion legality.
As the survey you cited demonstrates, in today's world the more a person knows about the science of biology the more likely they are to be pro-choice. The biological expertise are much, much, much more likely than the average person to be pro-choice.
However the delusional modern anti-abortion crowd has invented the moronic idea that the cut-off for legal abortions should be 'when human life begins'. That's simply an idiotic criteria invented by ignorant idiots who were anti-abortion already, in an attempt to justify their own position with pretend arguments. There's no reason to take it seriously as a criteria - neither the ancient Romans nor modern biologists think it has any relevance at all.Last edited by Starlight; 10-29-2019, 04:35 PM."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThat was the original point, Star -- that even PRO-CHOICE biologists overwhelmingly agree that life begins at conception -- THEREFORE -- the narrative has to change to "personhood" or "viability" or some other metric.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
It was R v W that caused a deeper look at the issue, and the tide has changed. Stop living in the past, Tassy.
Initially the Religious Right favored the decision.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThe issue is when such a life becomes subject to the rights and protections of law.
"Infanticide has been practiced on every continent and by people on every level of cultural complexity, from hunter gatherers to high civilizations, including our own ancestors. Rather than being an exception, then, it has been the rule." - Anthropologist Laila Williamson in Infanticide and the Value of Life.
So the vast majority of human cultures have thought the rights and protections of law didn't extend to newborns.
According to Roe v Wade this is when the fetus has developed to the stage of viability. This has also long been the tradition throughout most of Judeo/Christian history.
In the Middle Ages, infanticide "was practiced on gigantic scale with absolute impunity, noticed by writers with most frigid indifference" - William L. Langer in Infanticide: a historical survey.
It wasn't really until the 19th century that infanticide was being seriously monitored in Europe and laws were put on the books against it and were being consistently enforced. So it's not true to say 'viability' has been the standard for most of Judeo/Christian history. For most of that history infanticide was tolerated.
Initially the Religious Right favored the [Roe v Wade] decision.
Last edited by Starlight; 10-30-2019, 04:30 AM."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostIndeed.
"Infanticide has been practiced on every continent and by people on every level of cultural complexity, from hunter gatherers to high civilizations, including our own ancestors. Rather than being an exception, then, it has been the rule." - Anthropologist Laila Williamson in Infanticide and the Value of Life.
So the vast majority of human cultures have thought the rights and protections of law didn't extend to newborns.
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SCOTUS denies First Amendment challenge to Kentucky ultrasound abortion law
https://www.theblaze.com/news/scotus...d-abortion-lawAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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I didn't vote for Trump. I voted for Rand Paul in the primary and Gary Johnson in the general election. I thought Trump was too inexperienced and too uncertain to have his fingers anywhere near the nuclear hot buttons.
But now, with the advantage of hindsight, I will have no problem voting for him in 2020. He has proven himself to be anti-globalist (win) and anti-militarist (another win). I don't like what's happening with the imbalanced budgets and the national debt (which is a looming disaster) but no other candidates have offered any solutions yet. Rand Paul came closest.
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