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Why I Voted For Trump...

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    We are the United STATES of America, Jim -- but the point you keep missing is that everybody who runs for politics knows what the rules are, and gears their entire campaign accordingly. Or should. And everybody knows there's a difference between NATIONAL and STATEWIDE offices.
    And what is that difference, CP? There are less populated rural areas and more populated big cities within states and we don't have an EC system in state.

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    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      It is indeed incredibly undemocratic. Just like each state getting two Senators regardless of population.

      But that is exactly why the Founding Fathers designed it that way. They wanted a Republic, not a Democracy.
      That's not why they designed the electoral college that way. They went with the electoral college because it allowed the states with a lot of slaves to use those slaves for voting power despite not actually letting them vote. So the reason why the electoral college was created was slavery. This is explicitly noted in James Madison's notes on the convention.

      EDIT: I should provide proof of this. Here is James Madison's statement. Most of it is an argument as to why the president should not be chosen by the legislature, but at the end he explains the reason for dismissing the popular vote:

      "If it be a fundamental principle of free Govt. that the Legislative, Executive & Judiciary powers should be separately exercised, it is equally so that they be independently exercised. There is the same & perhaps greater reason why the Executive shd. be independent of the Legislature, than why the Judiciary should: A coalition of the two former powers would be more immediately & certainly dangerous to public liberty. It is essential then that the appointment of the Executive should either be drawn from some source, or held by some tenure, that will give him a free agency with regard to the Legislature. This could not be if he was to be appointable from time to time by the Legislature. It was not clear that an appointment in the 1st. instance even with an eligibility afterwards would not establish an improper connection between the two departments. Certain it was that the appointment would be attended with intrigues and contentions that ought not to be unnecessarily admitted. He was disposed for these reasons to refer the appointment to some other source. The people at large was in his opinion the fittest in itself. It would be as likely as any that could be devised to produce an Executive Magistrate of distinguished Character. The people generally could only know & vote for some Citizen whose merits had rendered him an object of general attention & esteem. There was one difficulty however of a serious nature attending an immediate choice by the people. The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of the Negroes. The substitution of electors obviated this difficulty and seemed on the whole to be liable to fewest objections."

      Source

      Originally posted by Ronson View Post
      If not for the EC, states with the biggest cities and densest populations would win every national election.
      Which is preferable to the states that are swing states winning every national election?

      Places like Montana and Utah may as well secede under a strict democracy.
      You say this as if they have a strong voice in the electoral college. They don't; the electoral college increases it slightly but only marginally. They might as well secede under the electoral college by this logic.

      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      Not to mention the votes that went to Jill Stein.
      Even if every person who voted for Jill Stein moved their vote to Hillary Clinton--which would absolutely not be the case, because a lot, probably even most, wouldn't have voted for Hillary anyway--then Hillary still would have lost the election.
      Last edited by Terraceth; 12-10-2019, 08:48 PM.

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      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        And what is that difference, CP?
        It's actually pretty simple. Our nation was made up of "the several states", to be "one nation". Hence, "the United States of America".

        The "several states" were left to govern themselves where the national interest wasn't greater.

        The "several states" are not "the united counties of the states" or any such thing, they are each their own entity.

        There are less populated rural areas and more populated big cities within states and we don't have an EC system in state.
        Blame the founding fathers. It's the way it is, and everybody who runs for office - local, state or national - knows that and runs their campaigns accordingly.
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
          Which is preferable to the states that are swing states winning every national election?

          You say this as if they have a strong voice in the electoral college. They don't; the electoral college increases it slightly but only marginally. They might as well secede under the electoral college by this logic.
          I might prefer a parliamentary-type vote like they have in Britain, in how they elect their prime minister. Maybe let the House and Senate cast votes for president.

          Just a thought.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
            They went with the electoral college because it allowed the states with a lot of slaves to use those slaves for voting power despite not actually letting them vote.
            No. In fact, pro-slavery states were strongly opposed to the electoral college because it gave them less overall power in deciding who would be president. It had nothing to do with whether or not slaves could vote, because the states with the largest slave populations naturally also had the largest white populations, so even if slaves couldn't vote, a state like Virginia, which at the time had a larger white population than five of the smaller Northern states combined, would have still dominated a popular vote contest.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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            • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
              I might prefer a parliamentary-type vote like they have in Britain, in how they elect their prime minister. Maybe let the House and Senate cast votes for president.

              Just a thought.
              It used to be that state legislatures would choose the electors, and then those electors would vote for president. I sometimes think we should return to that model and do away with a vote of the people.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                I might prefer a parliamentary-type vote like they have in Britain, in how they elect their prime minister. Maybe let the House and Senate cast votes for president.

                Just a thought.
                If we do that, I think we'd have to reconfigure the powers of the president a good amount. Normally prime ministers actually have little in the way of "official" powers like the president does. Their "power" comes less from the constitution and more from the fact they have the support of a majority of the legislature, like Nancy Pelosi or Mitch McConnell do. The Speaker of the House is the most analogous position to a prime minister in the US.

                And like prime ministers, normally presidents elected by their legislatures tend to have fairly limited powers. Which makes a good amount of sense, honestly... if the president is elected directly by the legislature, why invest them with a bunch of power rather than just giving it to the legislature in the first place?

                Comment

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