Pro-choice distortion

[MaxVel]

This is why I authorized her as my agent of record!

Far be it from me to question your choices, but wouldn't Tassman have been a more, uh, entertaining choice?

[Cow Poke]

Far be it from me to question your choices, but wouldn't Tassman have been a more, uh, entertaining choice?

Entertaining, certainly! He tends to get confused in the heat of debate and throws his own people under the bus. And when you call him on it, he doubles down until you smack him hard, then he pretends it never happened. He is, indeed, entertaining!

I'll stick with Quanta.

[rogue06]

You've been told repeatedly that your continued use of the term "blob of cells" is part of the problem, and yet you still keep defending the term. You talk about wanting there to be progress in ending this war, yet you are perpetuating it. You might not like hearing that, but you need to hear it.

And yes, you did compare pregnancy to actual health disorders. You claimed that the abortion industry is a subset of the healthcare industry in general. The purpose of healthcare is to care for health, as the name suggests. You have refused to acknowledge that the abortion industry is not true healthcare. It sees itself as such, but that doesn't make it so. Their aim is to end human lives. This is the opposite of what true healthcare does.

That ^^^

[carpedm9587]

You've been told repeatedly that your continued use of the term "blob of cells" is part of the problem, and yet you still keep defending the term. You talk about wanting there to be progress in ending this war, yet you are perpetuating it. You might not like hearing that, but you need to hear it.

I think you're missing the point, Quanta. The point is - both sides spend their time using inflammatory language - and objecting to the other's sides use of language. Pro-choice uses "blob of cells" and the right is hyper sensitive to it - and the pro-life side uses "abortion mill" and the other side objects to that. If the war is to be put on hold to actually address the problem, both sides will have to get off the "politically correct" bandwagon, amend their language, and focus on what is REALLY important: the death of children.

To the pro-life people I say - "blob of cells" is a perfectly fine expression for the first part of a pregnancy - relax and stop being so bloody PC.
To the pro-choice I say - "blob of cells" triggers them - if you want to make progress - stop being so bloody inflammatory.

Neither side likes the message.

And yes, you did compare pregnancy to actual health disorders. You claimed that the abortion industry is a subset of the healthcare industry in general. The purpose of healthcare is to care for health, as the name suggests. You have refused to acknowledge that the abortion industry is not true healthcare. It sees itself as such, but that doesn't make it so. Their aim is to end human lives. This is the opposite of what true healthcare does.

No - I didn't compare pregnancy to a health disorder. I go to the doctor for a physical - I'm not going because of a health disorder. Healthcare is about dealing with disease - yes. It is also about "maintaining health." That health can be psychological, physical, or emotional. A woman can go see a doctor to verify her pregnancy is proceeding well. That doesn't make every pregnancy about a "disorder." Healthcare is just that - about human health and well being. If a woman sees a fetus as "not a person," and the pregnancy is threatening to cause psychological, emotional, or physical distress - she will see ending it as a viable alternative with no contradiction. It's not about pregnancy being a disease, any more than my elderly aunt removing a permanently toenail makes the toenail a disease. She had it removed because cutting it was becoming increasingly stressful for her and, at her age, the doctor's agreed that the procedure was so minor, her psychological health was worth the minor procedure.

To you - this fetus is a human life - so all of that takes on a new dimension. But it is a dimension the people on the other side of the aisle do not share because they don't start from your assumptions. That's the point most people on either side simply don't seem to want to hear - or to accept - or to even consider.

But - every once in a while - someone says, "I get it now" and another recruit starts advocating for the end of the hostilities. With each post - I cross my fingers someone will read this and get the message.

[Cow Poke]

I think you're missing the point, Quanta. The point is - both sides spend their time using inflammatory language - and objecting to the other's sides use of language. ...

But the fact is that you present yourself as some kind of ambassador of peace to "stop the war" --- yet you keep lobbing grenades. Just stop it!

[carpedm9587]

IIRC, Quantafille raised the point earlier that even at a very early stage, a human foetus is not a blob of cells - it has structure and organisation to it, which is something the term 'blob' denies. At least one of the meanings of 'blob' is shapeless or 'without distinct shape or definition'. That means that using blob to describe a foetus is incorrect and prejudicial, in the sense that it implies the foetus at that stage is something without structure or organisation (and hence not of value etc).

Carpe, I think Quanta is absolutely correct about your use of language, just as you are correct to point out that terms like 'abortion mills' are inflammatory and prejudicial.

In all seriousness - I don't actually typically use "blob of cells" in reference to a fetus. I tend to use "baby" or "little one." After all, I believe it is a distinct human life. And to a doctor, an embryologist, or anyone trained - there is structure to the developing embryo. I've never thought otherwise. To the lay person looking at a 1-4 week old image of a developing fetus - they see a "blob of cells." The term is apt - and really not worth all of this to-do, IMO. It is the "hyper sensitive" counter to "inflammatory language."

Indeed, I think I might have said "last word to you" on this issue some pages ago...and am just remembering it. So I'll jump back off again and leave the rest to you folks.

[carpedm9587]

In a real conversation, Carpe, if you have a guy who just kinda drones on and on, you... well, I don't know about you, by my eyes tend to glaze over. It's like some people talk just to hear themselves talk, and they're not really interested in a response - they're too busy thinking up what they're going to say next.

You know - I've been swallowing this "verbose" thing for a while - and sometimes I do get long winded. No question about it. But I was curious so I wandered back through my posts and did a little comparison of the word count on either side of the discussion. I found my word count is slightly higher than those I discuss with. Occasionally it spikes, and sometimes it drops. On average, slightly higher.

I think I've been swallowing it unchallenged for too long. I think it's become an excuse not to read and not to consider the points.

I don't think it's an excuse -- all this cut paste cut paste chop chop gets old. I think it would be a whole lot better if we ate the elephant a bite at a time, and took turns.

I'll let my statement above stand.

[Cow Poke]

You know - I've been swallowing this "verbose" thing for a while - and sometimes I do get long winded. No question about it. But I was curious so I wandered back through my posts and did a little comparison of the word count on either side of the discussion. I found my word count is slightly higher than those I discuss with. Occasionally it spikes, and sometimes it drops. On average, slightly higher.

I think I've been swallowing it unchallenged for too long. I think it's become an excuse not to read and not to consider the points.

Often, I get sucked into your long drawn out point by point responses where you chop up everything somebody else said into little pieces...... that just gets old.

I'll let my statement above stand.

Thanks for the relative brevity!

[carpedm9587]

But the fact is that you present yourself as some kind of ambassador of peace to "stop the war" --- yet you keep lobbing grenades. Just stop it!

I'm not an "ambassador" not have I thought of myself as one. On this issue, I tend to think of myself as a bit of a mirror. I find each side to be complacently sitting engaging and congratulating themselves on being on the "side of right" and the "side of good." I find myself sitting more to the side looking at the fray and saying, "you guys have no idea what you look like." So ambassador? No, Mirror? Probably more apt.

But I am hoping to draw others off the lines and look at things from that perspective. It's slow. Both sides start by getting ticked off - usually at me. Now and then - someone gives it some thought. I'll take the lambasting if it has that occasional result.

[Cow Poke]

In all seriousness - I don't actually typically use "blob of cells" in reference to a fetus. I tend to use "baby" or "little one." After all, I believe it is a distinct human life. And to a doctor, an embryologist, or anyone trained - there is structure to the developing embryo. I've never thought otherwise. To the lay person looking at a 1-4 week old image of a developing fetus - they see a "blob of cells." The term is apt - and really not worth all of this to-do, IMO. It is the "hyper sensitive" counter to "inflammatory language."

It's just dumb. Unnecessary. You recognize that it's inflammatory, but you choose to use it anyway while trying to convince others that you are an ambassador of peace.

You might as well say "I want this discussion to be more civil" while giving us the middle finger.

[Cow Poke]

I'm not an "ambassador" not have I thought of myself as one. On this issue, I tend to think of myself as a bit of a mirror. I find each side to be complacently sitting engaging and congratulating themselves on being on the "side of right" and the "side of good." I find myself sitting more to the side looking at the fray and saying, "you guys have no idea what you look like." So ambassador? No, Mirror? Probably more apt.

But I am hoping to draw others off the lines and look at things from that perspective. It's slow. Both sides start by getting ticked off - usually at me. Now and then - someone gives it some thought. I'll take the lambasting if it has that occasional result.

So BE AN EXAMPLE! Why is that so hard for you to comprehend?

[carpedm9587]

Often, I get sucked into your long drawn out point by point responses where you chop up everything somebody else said into little pieces...... that just gets old.

Then I'll say to you as I said to Sparko - talk to someone else. I post as I post. I read a post, and then insert responses near to the thing they are responding to. And if someone asks a question, I insert the answer after the question. Some people appreciate the association, some people find the "chopping up" that often results irritating. The former will find chatting with me a pleasant experience - the latter will find it unpleasant. I usually recommend people not do something that is unpleasant.

Thanks for the relative brevity!

I used exactly the number of words I needed.

[carpedm9587]

It's just dumb. Unnecessary. You recognize that it's inflammatory, but you choose to use it anyway while trying to convince others that you are an ambassador of peace.

You might as well say "I want this discussion to be more civil" while giving us the middle finger.

Actually - I don't use it. Go back through my posts and you will note I am challenging the position that the term is "inappropriate." I tend to use "fetus," "baby," or "little one." What I am doing is saying, "stop wasting your time and energy on ridiculous phrases like 'blob of cells.' It's a politically-correct non-issue. And meanwhile, stop spending so much time objecting to that inflammatory language when you pepper your own posts with inflammatory language in the reverse direction."

Lighten-up on the sensitivity - lighten-up on being inflammatory - and focus on what is actually important: kids are dying. While we are busily bickering over words - actual systemic solutions are not being sought or implemented.

[carpedm9587]

So BE AN EXAMPLE! Why is that so hard for you to comprehend?

That comes later!

Seriously, CP, I have been at this for many years now. I have found, over those years, that when I simply walk in and be sweet and nice - I get dismissed. Either that or I get immediately associated with the "other side." I can be sweet and nice and "an example" for weeks on end, and I usually make zero progress.

But if I begin by calling out the dynamic - naming it - even if it ticks people off - I am more likely to get one or two willing ears. I'm not sure why that is true - but it is almost universally true - in my experience.

So I do what works...

[Cow Poke]

Actually - I don't use it. Go back through my posts and you will note I am challenging the position that the term is "inappropriate." I tend to use "fetus," "baby," or "little one." What I am doing is saying, "stop wasting your time and energy on ridiculous phrases like 'blob of cells.'

So, you don't "use it", but you repeatedly defend it. Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense.

It's a politically-correct non-issue. And meanwhile, stop spending so much time objecting to that inflammatory language when you pepper your own posts with inflammatory language in the reverse direction."

I'm not pretending to be the ambassador of peace!

Lighten-up on the sensitivity - lighten-up on being inflammatory - and focus on what is actually important: kids are dying. While we are busily bickering over words - actual systemic solutions are not being sought or implemented.

Here's that thing again where you do that thing you pretend to hate -- the mind reading. There's no need for me to "lighten up" - I'm just calmly responding to your posts. You don't have the power to anger me or get me in a fluster.

And stop with the "pretending that, "while we are busily bickering over words - actual systemic solutions are not being sought or implemented" - that's dumb. If you really believe that, then STOP BICKERING!

You seem to be a merchant of "do what I say, not what I do".