Roy Moore accused of sexual contact with 14-year old

[Juvenal]

Er, liberals don't want a background check and national database of people who lawfully own, or seek to own, firearms because they think bearing arms is a precious right.

We need a "zing" button.

[Cow Poke]

I know I've said this before but if South Africa, where the per capita poverty levels are way higher than in the US, can make it so every adult has photo ID (used to be an ID book, in the process to changing to a smart card), there is no excuse for the US to ensure that every adult has a photo ID and in a manner where cost is not an issue.

And in SA you pretty much need your photo ID to do anything not just voting. The first one is free, if you loose it the cost is nominal (ZAR140.....or about US$10) and from memory if you can't afford it the cost can be waived.

(In SA all citizens and permanent residents have a photo ID. All others need to have a passport, so also have photo ID)

Liberals would mock you and call this a "show me your papers" society.

[carpedm9587]

I know I've said this before but if South Africa, where the per capita poverty levels are way higher than in the US, can make it so every adult has photo ID (used to be an ID book, in the process to changing to a smart card), there is no excuse for the US to ensure that every adult has a photo ID and in a manner where cost is not an issue.

I absolutely agree!

And in SA you pretty much need your photo ID to do anything not just voting. The first one is free, if you loose it the cost is nominal (ZAR140.....or about US$10) and from memory if you can't afford it the cost can be waived.(In SA all citizens and permanent residents have a photo ID. All others need to have a passport, so also have photo ID)

Sounds like a good system. So here's the problem: that's NOT the system we have here. And the "VoterID" initiatives mandate the need for the ID without providing the infrastructure to ensure that everyone who needs one has one. The result: voter disenfranchisement up to a 2% level with a 1.2% net negative shift for Democratic voters (see the previous link). All of that in the absence of a proven problem that needs to be solved.

Hence my suggestion - if the right is TRULY not looking to disenfranchise voters - then START by implementing a universal ID system that will provide everyone who needs an ID with one at a cost that can be afforded or waived. Once that has been done, and everyone either has one or has had a reasonable opportunity to GET one, THEN make it a mandatory requirement for voter registration and voting. Win-win. Everyone has an ID, no one is disenfranchised, and any worries about "voter fraud" can be allayed.

I see no reason for resisting this suggestion, UNLESS, the real intent of voter registration really has nothing to do with voter fraud - and really is all about minimizing Democrat votes and maximizing Republican votes. I have no problem with "get out the vote" initiatives - and I have no problem with each party working hard to get out its OWN votes. I don't even have a problem with initiatives to try to encourage people of the other party NOT to vote. I view it as unethical, unamerican, and unpatriotic to engage in initiatives that explicitly deny U.S. citizens of access to the polling place (e.g., slashing tires, closing polling locations, requiring specific tests, creating hostile environments, or placing legal obstacles that disproprotionately impact the electorate).

[Starlight]

If somebody is so totally unaware of how to function in this society, why would we want them to abuse the sacred right of voting?

Why not have a poll tax, so that only people who are really committed to the sacred right of voting can vote?

[carpedm9587]

Liberals would mock you and call this a "show me your papers" society.

I would be right next to you resisting such a claim. A universal ID system can be a powerful way to create access. The problem, right now, is that the emphasis is on denying access.

[Starlight]

I know I've said this before but if South Africa, where the per capita poverty levels are way higher than in the US, can make it so every adult has photo ID (used to be an ID book, in the process to changing to a smart card), there is no excuse for the US to ensure that every adult has a photo ID and in a manner where cost is not an issue.

Of course, here in New Zealand where you live now, not everyone has a photo ID, and ID is neither required to enroll to vote (which is a short form which asks for your name and address and date of birth - see here for the online form), nor to actually vote (which again just requires you to know your name and address).

[Raphael]

Of course, here in New Zealand where you live now, not everyone has a photo ID, and ID is neither required to enroll to vote (which is a short form which asks for your name and address and date of birth - see here for the online form), nor to actually vote (which again just requires you to know your name and address).

I know. but if people want to have voters to have a voter ID, then it's not that hard to implement in a manner that it doesn't result in becoming a form of poll tax or significantly increase voter disenfranchisement¹. If SA, with all it's problems, can largely get it right, there is no real excuse why the US can't put in place a system that works for all voters.



1.) you're always going to get some disenfranchisement from various sources, a easy to roll out Photo ID won't magically change that, but it should hopefully bring an improvement of the situation rather than make it worse

[Cow Poke]

Why not have a poll tax, so that only people who are really committed to the sacred right of voting can vote?

Why not stop being such a butthead?

[Teallaura]

Which would be a move to the center.

My honest opinion of American politics? you guys have obliterated your center with people right to hard right and left to hard left with both sides often viciously attacking those who may express a more central opinion.
As long as you have that I believe America suffers as a whole.

The irony is, they actually aren't that far apart in aggregate - in America politicians often have to accentuate differences. Despite the polarization, America remains very much a centrist nation.

We're weird, yes, we know.

[Teallaura]

My point was more that Teallura seemed to be asking for something contradictory. I posited that considering he probably (when signing up for his candidacy) didn't expect to have any real chance of winning, Doug Jones might not be too concerned about re-election prospects and would just do whatever he wanted to without caring about how it'd affect re-election chances. Teallura's statement of his party caring and it not making him popular were therefore asking him to do two things that seemed at odds with each other.

I think the problem is more the binary nature of things. Give me an elected politician's stance on one particular major issue and I can probably perfectly predict the rest of their major stances 90% of the time because they line up so much.

You evaluated my position correctly - Jones is not going to have an easy time of this because he can't please everyone that he needs to please.

[Teallaura]

Some of those poor would also be white, correct? And yet the left pretends this would somehow be a supposed burden only on minorities.

This isn't the 19th cent carp. Even home births of someone from a broken family get recorded. Someone, somewhere down the line has needed to produce some sort of documentation in the 18 years it took for a person to become an adult. Things may have changed but when I was a child my parents had to provide the school with a copy of a birth certificate to enroll and for several decades the government has compeled children to get Social Security cards which require documentation.

And again, I suggest how Georgia provides ID cards as a model.

Birth certificates are required of all live births in every state to the best of my knowledge. It's even possible to document a birth years later - albeit rare now.

[Teallaura]

as far as I know you can't even register to vote much less actually show up to vote without a photo ID. And that is the way it should be.

Registration does not require photo ID and doesn't need to. However, voter ID's are photo in Alabama.

[One Bad Pig]

I would be right next to you resisting such a claim. A universal ID system can be a powerful way to create access. The problem, right now, is that the emphasis is on denying access for people to fraudulently vote in multiple places, as well as those who have already shuffled off this mortal coil.

Fixed that for you.

[rogue06]

You evaluated my position correctly - Jones is not going to have an easy time of this because he can't please everyone that he needs to please.

And won't have a chance of being re-elected if he follows Schumer's lead.

[carpedm9587]

Fixed that for you.

Thanks - but it was fine as it was. When a "solution" is solving a problem that has not been shown to exist, the side-effects of the solution are going to get more attention. In this case, it is exclusion.