The scandal of pretending to be another race

[Starlight]

You are daft...

First line of the article:

Scientists have been engaging for decades in an avid hunt for a biological explanation for why some people are transgender.

Later it says:

While the hunt for a cause marches on...

Don't delude yourselves that scientists aren't looking for causes of it and treatments for it. You just look like utter fools.

[seer]

First line of the article:

Scientists have been engaging for decades in an avid hunt for a biological explanation for why some people are transgender.

Later it says:

While the hunt for a cause marches on...

Don't delude yourselves that scientists aren't looking for causes of it and treatments for it. You just look like utter fools.

You missed the point, which is that bioessentialism or looking for a biological cause and cure is, according to the article, not only wrong headed but dangerous. And you can bet that that belief will win out since looking for a cure is already being linked to conversion therapy. So any research going to that road will soon be roundly condemned.

Taken to the extreme, this rhetoric is used to justify the existence and continued perpetuation of the so-called “cure” known as conversion therapy

the continued push for the bioessentialist model wrongly and inevitably delegitimizes many transgender or nonbinary individuals

[seer]

lacking any actual mental treatment[/I] the options are (a) let the person remain in the state of extreme mental distress, (b) alleviate that mental distress with some less-than-ideal physical changes. The medical community has observed that option b seems generally better because even though the less-than-perfect physical changes can be a source of some distress it is usually much less than the previous mental distress.

If physical transitioning is a better alternative then why are countries like Sweden, who have been in this game longer than most, back off of such transitioning. Why are they turning more to psychological remedies?

Summary of Key Points (NBHW February 2022 Update)

• Following a rigorous analysis of evidence base, there has been a marked change in treatment recommendations. The guidance has changed from a previously strong recommendation to treat youth with hormones, to new caution to avoid hormones except for “exceptional cases.” A more cautious approach that prioritizes non-invasive interventions is now recommended, due to recognition of the importance of allowing ongoing maturation and identity formation of youth.
• Currently, the NBHW assert that the risks of hormonal treatments outweigh the benefits for most gender-dysphoric youth:
  • Poor quality/insufficient evidence: The evidence for safety and efficacy of treatments remains insufficient to draw any definitive conclusions;
  • Poorly understood marked change in demographics: The sharp rise in the numbers of youth seeking to transition and the change in sex ratio toward a preponderance of females is not well-understood;
  • Growing visibility of detransition/regret: New knowledge about detransition in young adults challenges prior assumption of low regret, and the fact that most do not tell practitioners about their detransition could indicate that detransition rates have been underestimated.
• Psychological and psychiatric care will become the first line of treatment for all gender dysphoric youth <18.
  • A substantial focus is placed on gender exploration that does not privilege any given outcome (desistance or persistence).
  • The presence of psychiatric diagnoses will lead to prolonged evaluation to ensure that these conditions are under control and that gender transition does not do more harm than good.
• The diagnosis of ASD (autism spectrum disorder) will necessitate additional evaluation.
  • The well-known lack of adherence to gender norms among ASD individuals could lead them to misattribute their experience to being “transgender” and inappropriately transition.
  • The guidelines also posit that some youth on the autism spectrum who are suffering from gender dysphoria may not come across as genuinely suffering because they take little care to present in ways consistent with the gender they identify with.
• Access to hormonal interventions for youth <18 will be tightly restricted. The goal is to administer these interventions in research settings only, and to restrict eligibility criteria to mirror those in the “Dutch protocol.”
  • The key prerequisite for hormonal treatment of youth is the prepubertal onset of gender dysphoria that is long-lasting (5 year minimum is mentioned), persists into adolescence and causes clear suffering.
  • Some exceptions apply. Puberty blockade can be offered in extreme circumstances to those with post-pubertal onset of gender dysphoria, especially for biologically male patients. However, it does not appear that cross-sex hormones can be offered to the <18 youth with no childhood history of gender dysphoria.
• Social transition may be recommended to some youths. Social transition may be recommended at the latter stage of assessments. The health care service may accommodate these young people by providing them with “aids” such as packers, binders, tucking devices, and breast and genital prosthesis.
• Most youth will receive psychotherapeutic care in their home regions. Gender-affirming interventions will be provided at few highly specialized centers and in the context of research.
  • Home regions will need to develop competence in managing gender dysphoria with psychological and psychotherapeutic interventions.
  • Centers offering “gender-affirming” interventions will be centralized, and their number reduced.
• Treatment eligibility will be based on the criterion of “distress,” and not “identity.”
  • The DSM diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” will be a prerequisite for eligibility for “gender-affirming” hormonal interventions.
  • The presence of a transgender identity that is not causing distress or functional impairments is not sufficient.
  • At the current time, youth who identify as nonbinary will not be eligible for hormonal interventions even in research settings. Future updates to these guidelines will address appropriate treatments for this patient population.
• https://segm.org/segm-summary-sweden...ysphoric-youth

[Starlight]

If physical transitioning is a better alternative then why are countries like Sweden, who have been in this game longer than most, back off of such transitioning. Why are they turning more to psychological remedies?

Summary of Key Points (NBHW February 2022 Update)

• Following a rigorous analysis of evidence base, there has been a marked change in treatment recommendations. The guidance has changed from a previously strong recommendation to treat youth with hormones, to new caution to avoid hormones except for “exceptional cases.” A more cautious approach that prioritizes non-invasive interventions is now recommended, due to recognition of the importance of allowing ongoing maturation and identity formation of youth.
• Currently, the NBHW assert that the risks of hormonal treatments outweigh the benefits for most gender-dysphoric youth:
  • Poor quality/insufficient evidence: The evidence for safety and efficacy of treatments remains insufficient to draw any definitive conclusions;
  • Poorly understood marked change in demographics: The sharp rise in the numbers of youth seeking to transition and the change in sex ratio toward a preponderance of females is not well-understood;
  • Growing visibility of detransition/regret: New knowledge about detransition in young adults challenges prior assumption of low regret, and the fact that most do not tell practitioners about their detransition could indicate that detransition rates have been underestimated.
• Psychological and psychiatric care will become the first line of treatment for all gender dysphoric youth <18.
  • A substantial focus is placed on gender exploration that does not privilege any given outcome (desistance or persistence).
  • The presence of psychiatric diagnoses will lead to prolonged evaluation to ensure that these conditions are under control and that gender transition does not do more harm than good.
• The diagnosis of ASD (autism spectrum disorder) will necessitate additional evaluation.
  • The well-known lack of adherence to gender norms among ASD individuals could lead them to misattribute their experience to being “transgender” and inappropriately transition.
  • The guidelines also posit that some youth on the autism spectrum who are suffering from gender dysphoria may not come across as genuinely suffering because they take little care to present in ways consistent with the gender they identify with.
• Access to hormonal interventions for youth <18 will be tightly restricted. The goal is to administer these interventions in research settings only, and to restrict eligibility criteria to mirror those in the “Dutch protocol.”
  • The key prerequisite for hormonal treatment of youth is the prepubertal onset of gender dysphoria that is long-lasting (5 year minimum is mentioned), persists into adolescence and causes clear suffering.
  • Some exceptions apply. Puberty blockade can be offered in extreme circumstances to those with post-pubertal onset of gender dysphoria, especially for biologically male patients. However, it does not appear that cross-sex hormones can be offered to the <18 youth with no childhood history of gender dysphoria.
• Social transition may be recommended to some youths. Social transition may be recommended at the latter stage of assessments. The health care service may accommodate these young people by providing them with “aids” such as packers, binders, tucking devices, and breast and genital prosthesis.
• Most youth will receive psychotherapeutic care in their home regions. Gender-affirming interventions will be provided at few highly specialized centers and in the context of research.
  • Home regions will need to develop competence in managing gender dysphoria with psychological and psychotherapeutic interventions.
  • Centers offering “gender-affirming” interventions will be centralized, and their number reduced.
• Treatment eligibility will be based on the criterion of “distress,” and not “identity.”
  • The DSM diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” will be a prerequisite for eligibility for “gender-affirming” hormonal interventions.
  • The presence of a transgender identity that is not causing distress or functional impairments is not sufficient.
  • At the current time, youth who identify as nonbinary will not be eligible for hormonal interventions even in research settings. Future updates to these guidelines will address appropriate treatments for this patient population.
• https://segm.org/segm-summary-sweden...ysphoric-youth

That's fine. I've got zero problem with doctors adjusting the treatment methodologies in an evidence-based way, in fact, it's exactly what I support. Note that they're not ruling out physical transition as a treatment for gender dysphoria, just restricting its usage on youth to extreme cases.

As I've said elsewhere, I think there has been over-treatment of youth with gender-dysphoria in some geographical areas, and undertreatment in others. The Republicans are very wrong to want to ban physical transitioning entirely for everyone, and some of the liberals are too quick to allow youth to start down a transitioning path.

[seer]

That's fine. I've got zero problem with doctors adjusting the treatment methodologies in an evidence-based way, in fact, it's exactly what I support. Note that they're not ruling out physical transition as a treatment for gender dysphoria, just restricting its usage on youth to extreme cases.

Actually there was a recent up date, which I can not find now. They are cutting back even more on any physical or chemical treatments for those unde18. In any case that is not what is happening in the States, we are going full bore, making the same mistakes that Sweden and Finland are rectifying. So obviously American doctors are not 'following the science.'

As I've said elsewhere, I think there has been over-treatment of youth with gender-dysphoria in some geographical areas, and undertreatment in others. The Republicans are very wrong to want to ban physical transitioning entirely for everyone, and some of the liberals are too quick to allow youth to start down a transitioning path.

Given the high numbers of adolescents who desist by early adulthood (30-70%), and the increasing number detransitioners, and given the fact that the human brain is not fully formed until the mid 20s, they need to leave the kids alone - completely. Never mind the fact that science can never actually make little Johnny and girl.

[rogue06]

That's fine. I've got zero problem with doctors adjusting the treatment methodologies in an evidence-based way, in fact, it's exactly what I support. Note that they're not ruling out physical transition as a treatment for gender dysphoria, just restricting its usage on youth to extreme cases.

As I've said elsewhere, I think there has been over-treatment of youth with gender-dysphoria in some geographical areas, and undertreatment in others. The Republicans are very wrong to want to ban physical transitioning entirely for everyone, and some of the liberals are too quick to allow youth to start down a transitioning path.

So while Sweden is "adjusting the treatment methodologies in an evidence-based way" and all but eliminating transitioning for minors, the U.S. is doing just the opposite. Proceeding at a breakneck pace down the same path that the evidence convinced several European countries to look for a different route, all the while seeking to silence any objections (you know, like science typically does ).

[Sparko]

There is no hypothetical biological mechanism by which someone may justifiably claim to be a cat or Napoleon or Jesus Christ. You can't say that about claiming to be the opposite sex.

Yes, I can say that. A person who is biologically and genetically a male thinking they are a female has no biological mechanism to justifiably claim they are female. It is entirely a mental problem. Same as thinking they are Napoleon or a cat. Might there be some chemical or physical changes in their brain that contribute to the delusion they are female? Sure, but then there are chemical and physical changes to someone who is schizophrenic and thinks they are a cat or Napoleon too.

[Sparko]

Looks like Europe is starting to get a bit of common sense:

Yes, Europe Is Restricting “Gender-Affirming Care”
American activists distort the situation in European countries to defend an aggressive approach to pediatric gender medicine.

In the past few years, European health authorities conducted systematic reviews of evidence for the benefits and risks of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones. The findings from these reviews—that the certainty of benefits is very low—guided the hand of policymakers there to restrict access to hormones. Currently, minors in these countries can access puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones only if they meet strict eligibility requirements as set out in the Dutch protocol and only in the context of a tightly controlled research setting.

https://www.city-journal.org/yes-eur...affirming-care

[seer]

This was also the conclusion found in the Swedish study.

Abstract

There is a population of young women with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) who function relatively well so that their disorder is not easily recognized. If their difficulties with emotion regulation in childhood continue into adolescence they are vulnerable to the development of a number of mental disorders, treatment of which can be difficult if the presence of ASD is not understood. In this commentary, I use the example of gender dysphoria to illustrate the issues.

https://www.mdpi.com/2673-4184/2/1/7

• Adolescents with autism are overrepresented in the youth transgender population, and some medical professionals attribute this to autism spectrum traits such as obsessive thinking, vulnerability to body image issues and a sense of social rejection and isolation during adolescence.
• Dr. Susan Bradley, a Canadian psychiatrist who began working with gender dysphoric children in the 1970s, said she believed most of the children who sought gender transitions had high-functioning autism and were being exploited by the medical industry.
• “When somebody happens to mention that, you know, they’re trans or they hear about trans kids and go online, even if all they do is say, ‘I wonder if I’m trans,’ a lot of these kids are automatically accepted. ‘Well, you must be trans if you’ve even thought about that.’ And for them, that is a very helpful reaction, because all of a sudden, they feel as though that explains all of the trouble all the way along,” Bradley told the DCNF.

https://dailycaller.com/2023/03/12/h...perts-believe/

[Psychic Missile]

First, so let's use a MRI to weed out those who claim to be trans but aren't. And what do you mean by sex identification? Cultural markers? Biological?

How do you know? This whole born in the wrong body thing is relatively new. Perhaps the ideology is what is causing stress. Introducing the the idea that a masculine woman or a feminine man could actually be in the wrong body. Which pretty much was unheard of 40 years ago or so.

Except a male can never actually be a female and vice versa. So you are left with superficial cultural markers. And you are left with a definition of 'woman' that is reduced to stereotypes.

I would like to see the studies - how many of those who claim to be trans actually have different brains?

The problem is that intersex conditions can manifest in a variety of ways so there's no single definitive test. Normally if a transperson wants to transition they are assessed by multiple doctors to make sure that transitioning is the best treatment, which is superior to using as single test, especially when it concerns the most complicated and mysterious part of the body.

By sex identification I mean what sex a person identifies as.

Whether or not any specific person's gender dysphoria can be treated simply with therapy is an assessment that should be made by someone's therapist/psychologist/psychiatrist.

If a medical team has found that transitioning alleviates a person's symptoms are is the best treatment available, why does it matter if a male can never be female and vice versa in your point of view?

A few studies I've reviewed involve the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis. Here is a link to one such study. Others involve regional gray matter volume, like this study.

[Psychic Missile]

https://theconversation.com/you-dont...erences-158005

No mention of stria terminalis. Fail. This is what happens when you only read headlines and not the actual study.

[Psychic Missile]

Indeed true. From an individual basis, many are a combination of different SIRE groups, but from a macro perspective, the SIRE groups are traceable. Race has become less of a clear cut identity for an individual, except for places that are predominantly one SIRE. Indeed, it can be reasonably assumed that many of us are multi-racial, even just using the 4 major SIRE groups. I know I am.

At one time, drilling holes in the head, full frontal lobotomies, and electroshock therapy were considered "most effective" for treating mental illnesses. Bodily mutilation is in that same category. Only when medicine admits to itself that castration to treat a mental disorder is no different than trepanning as a cure for schizophrenia will real intellectual progress be made.

Glad to see we agree on race. This is why I find the equivocation between transgender and transrace people to baffling. Race identification originates in substantial physical and societal contrasts. Physical contrasts are superficial and don't conceivably contribute to inherent neurology any more than eye color or whether you have detached earlobes. Societal contrasts are assigned to you by society and are ultimately arbitrary, they're not decided by the individual in the first place.

By what criteria are you making the determination that a treatment is effective vs ineffective or best practice?

[Psychic Missile]

I would like to see the studies - how many of those who claim to be trans actually have different brains?

I provided the wrong link for the second study, this is the correct one. Unfortunately I can't edit my earlier reply.

[Psychic Missile]

How exactly does this "brain of one sex in the other sex's body" work given that the person making such a claim would have no idea what the brain of someone who is the opposite sex is like and how it would differ. It sounds like an excuse to justify an action rather than anything based on science and logic.

Why was David Reimer so upset? It's a matter of self-identification so knowing what it's like to have the brain of the opposite sex is completely unnecessary. The science is that we have seen discrepancies with BNST neurons and regional gray matter volumes in favor of the "brain in the wrong body" scenario, we know that there is a wide variety of manifestations of intersex conditions that can result in identification in opposition to the presence of primary and secondary sexual characteristics, we know of similar circumstances with homosexuality where there is a genetic and/or in vitro neurological abnormality that results in atypical sexuality identification, and we have a proven method of treatment for cases that truly fall within the transgender category. Trans opposition, on the other hand, is following the same playbook as those who believe vaccines cause autism: they only care about medical studies that agree with their point of view and ignore the ones that don't, they think all doctors are in on a conspiracy or bumbling idiots, they believe themselves more knowledgeable than any medical professional, and they demonstrate a lack of understanding of the basic medical concepts involved.

[Psychic Missile]

Yes, I can say that. A person who is biologically and genetically a male thinking they are a female has no biological mechanism to justifiably claim they are female. It is entirely a mental problem. Same as thinking they are Napoleon or a cat. Might there be some chemical or physical changes in their brain that contribute to the delusion they are female? Sure, but then there are chemical and physical changes to someone who is schizophrenic and thinks they are a cat or Napoleon too.

Except we have seen significant evidence from cases like David Reimer and other intersex individuals that there is a built-in neurological component to what sex you identify as. It is biologically conceivable that genetic or in vitro abnormalities could give someone an atypical sex identity in the same way they could give someone an atypical sexual attraction. It is impossible to make any similar connection to the other "identities" you're talking about.