The scandal of pretending to be another race

[Bill the Cat]

Cool! Show me a study that indicates there's no difference in the stria terminalis specifically.

https://theconversation.com/you-dont...erences-158005

[Gondwanaland]

Cool! Show me a study that indicates there's no difference in the stria terminalis specifically.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0325115316.htm

https://neurosciencenews.com/male-fe...ked-18276/amp/

[rogue06]

This is an excellent formalization of my argument. Much appreciated. I used to be against transitioning as treatment for trans people and thought all they needed was therapy to change their transgender identification "back" to cisgender. However, the more I looked into genetic sexual expression and intersex conditions the more I saw how there's a very reasonable, medically sound basis for the idea of the "brain of one sex in the other sex's body" description of dysphoria.

How exactly does this "brain of one sex in the other sex's body" work given that the person making such a claim would have no idea what the brain of someone who is the opposite sex is like and how it would differ. It sounds like an excuse to justify an action rather than anything based on science and logic.

[Bill the Cat]

Even if you can use genetic clusters to define different races, there's two problems: 1. That's not how race is used by society. Italians used to be non-white, now they're white. Brazilians have races we don't have in the US. Societal racial groups develop because of historical context, not genetics. 2. Clusters don't work on the individual level. You can find greater genetic differences between two people of the same race then two people of different races. What's the point of defining race if individuals can't tell what race they belong to?

Indeed true. From an individual basis, many are a combination of different SIRE groups, but from a macro perspective, the SIRE groups are traceable. Race has become less of a clear cut identity for an individual, except for places that are predominantly one SIRE. Indeed, it can be reasonably assumed that many of us are multi-racial, even just using the 4 major SIRE groups. I know I am.

Whatever treatment is most effective is to be determined by data and on a case by case basis. Attempting to handcuff medical professionals without any consideration for these factors is putting feelings over facts and is fundamentally anti-intellectual.

At one time, drilling holes in the head, full frontal lobotomies, and electroshock therapy were considered "most effective" for treating mental illnesses. Bodily mutilation is in that same category. Only when medicine admits to itself that castration to treat a mental disorder is no different than trepanning as a cure for schizophrenia will real intellectual progress be made.

[rogue06]

At one time, drilling holes in the head, full frontal lobotomies, and electroshock therapy were considered "most effective" for treating mental illnesses. Bodily mutilation is in that same category. Only when medicine admits to itself that castration to treat a mental disorder is no different than trepanning as a cure for schizophrenia will real intellectual progress be made.

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[seer]

At one time, drilling holes in the head, full frontal lobotomies, and electroshock therapy were considered "most effective" for treating mental illnesses. Bodily mutilation is in that same category. Only when medicine admits to itself that castration to treat a mental disorder is no different than trepanning as a cure for schizophrenia will real intellectual progress be made.

People fail to take into account that this whole trans thing is a real cash cow for pharma and medical...

[rogue06]

People fail to take into account that this whole trans thing is a real cash cow for pharma and medical...

Every business loves a lifetime customer.

[seer]

Every business loves a lifetime customer.

Better than junkies...

[Starlight]

Only when medicine admits to itself that castration to treat a mental disorder is no different than trepanning as a cure for schizophrenia will real intellectual progress be made.

Is this bozos around the watercooler give goofy advice to the scientists hour or something?

[Bill the Cat]

Is this bozos around the watercooler give goofy advice to the scientists hour or something?

When the soft "scientists" are ignoring the obvious, yes. Or do you still think electroshock therapy is a viable treatment?

[Starlight]

When the soft "scientists" are ignoring the obvious, yes. Or do you still think electroshock therapy is a viable treatment?

Your statement super-ignorantly assumes that scientists aren't actively researching the topic of mental cures for gender dysphoria. The amount of sheer stupidity it takes to say what you said is breathtaking. Of course people are working on it. They don't need to "admit" that trying to change the body is problematic, everyone knows that, it's a really hard process which has all sorts of negative side effects. It's just the only serious treatment we currently have because nobody's yet successfully invented any others. And then you come along and in drunk-Karen fashion say "well why don't they just realize that current treatments are bad and invent better ones?" People who have spent their entire lives trying to invent better ones would punch you in the face. Seriously, how stupid can you get?

[Gondwanaland]

Is this bozos around the watercooler give goofy advice to the scientists hour or something?

I'm sure there was a good little scientism follower just like you back in the early 1900s saying the same thing when people questioned 'The Science' about frontal lobotomies, or hell, even which cigarette brand was the healthiest.

[Bill the Cat]

Your statement super-ignorantly assumes that scientists aren't actively researching the topic of mental cures for gender dysphoria. The amount of sheer stupidity it takes to say what you said is breathtaking. Of course people are working on it. They don't need to "admit" that trying to change the body is problematic, everyone knows that, it's a really hard process which has all sorts of negative side effects. It's just the only serious treatment we currently have because nobody's yet successfully invented any others. And then you come along and in drunk-Karen fashion say "well why don't they just realize that current treatments are bad and invent better ones?" People who have spent their entire lives trying to invent better ones would punch you in the face. Seriously, how stupid can you get?

Sorry to break this to you, oh ignorant one, but the vast majority of those soft scientists are just fine with the current treatment and are less than interested in finding a treatment that doesn't involve gender transitions. The current concentration of care is centered around gender-affirmation, not treating the mental disorder itself. And listening to you blather on about my comments is the only stupid thing I am doing right now.

[seer]

Your statement super-ignorantly assumes that scientists aren't actively researching the topic of mental cures for gender dysphoria.

You are daft...

Scientific American


The Search for a ‘Cause’ of Transness Is Misguided

It can be well-intentioned, but it’s a dangerous path that leaves little room for a real understanding of gender and gender identity

...While the hunt for a cause marches on, the darker potential of the biological essentialism argument is becoming more evident. Biological essentialism, or belief in the claim that there is a biological basis for being transgender, does not equate to acceptance of transgender individuals. In 2017 researchers Boby Ho-Hong Ching and Jason Teng Xu exposed a group of university students to three articles of varying support for the idea that gender differences have a biological basis and then evaluated the students’ degree of transgender prejudice. Those exposed to the article with the most bioessentialist view demonstrated increased prejudice toward transgender individuals, compared with the other two groups. There has also been research showing that the isolated belief in the innateness of sexual orientation did not translate to positive attitudes toward sexual minority groups.

The other problem with the bioessentialist perspective is the support it lends to arguments that there is something broken or fixable about transgender individuals. One article published in 2018 in Clinical Psychopharmacology and Neuroscience claims that the brain structure differences found in transgender individuals arise from their chosen lifestyle and that “transgender individuals can be driven toward culturally contextualized behaviors ... and can be adapted to their original biological gender through trying to enjoy a natural sexual relationship.” This is a clear example of the biological essentialist perspective being used to argue for and justify a “cure”—in this case, what sounds like the equivalent of conversion therapy.

The bioessentialist model encourages a flawed dynamic with clinical or academic individuals as the assessors of accuracy and the TGNB individuals as the justify-or-die subject. As Ashley states, “we must move away from attempting to assess the truth and authenticity of assertions of gender identity."

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-is-misguided/

[Starlight]

The current concentration of care is centered around gender-affirmation, not treating the mental disorder itself.

Get this into your thick skull: There is no known treatment for the mental disorder itself.

Psychologists, psychotherapists, doctors, etc have been at this for many decades and not found one. Basically saying "oh, well maybe they should just try" is lunatic stuff. They've tried everything they can think of, and so far nothing's worked. Sometimes you guys appear to think that if only they tell the patient slowly and clearly 10 times that they're not transgender then the patient will have some sort of revelation that they really aren't.

How to translate your level of stupidity to something you might understand? Maybe if someone came along and said "oh gosh, I've realized lots of people die in wars. I think if only military command realized that lots of people die in wars, they would have wars with nobody dying on either side."

If you're just going to lie to yourself and everyone by pretending that there is a known mental treatment for gender dysphoria, or that a simple one exists and that the medical profession is willfully avoiding finding it, then your view adds nothing to the conservation because you're not engaging with reality, like I would be if I proposed having a big war with nobody dying on either side.

Physical transitioning is a harm-reduction treatment, because lacking any actual mental treatment the options are (a) let the person remain in the state of extreme mental distress, (b) alleviate that mental distress with some less-than-ideal physical changes. The medical community has observed that option b seems generally better because even though the less-than-perfect physical changes can be a source of some distress it is usually much less than the previous mental distress.