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The scandal of pretending to be another race

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  • #31
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    I wonder if something like that has ever happened...

    Oh.

    David Reimer

    David Reimer (born Bruce Peter Reimer; 22 August 1965 – 4 May 2004) was a Canadian man born male but raised as a girl following medical advice and intervention after his penis was severely injured during a botched circumcision in infancy.[1]

    The psychologist John Money oversaw the case and reported the reassignment as successful and as evidence that gender identity is primarily learned. The academic sexologist Milton Diamond later reported that Reimer's realization that he was not a girl crystallized between the ages of 9 and 11 years[2] and that he was living as a male by age 15. Well known in medical circles for years anonymously as the "John/Joan" case, Reimer later went public with his story to help discourage similar medical practices. At age 38, he committed suicide after suffering severe depression.

    Exactly the case I had in mind.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      I don't know. Could be affected by hormones..
      Probably not.

      I don't know. But it wouldn't change the fact that they were still biologically male down to their DNA. So they would be living a lie. And the doctors and parents would be guilty of child abuse and should be tossed in prison.

      Regarding your first question, even if someone thinks they are female trapped in a male body, that doesn't make them female. It just makes them wrong and delusional. And in need of mental therapy. Same as if someone thinks they are a cat, or a chair.
      I have a hard time understanding where the conflation between being transgender and transrace comes from as there is a theoretical biological basis for identification with the opposite sex (there are also a decent amount of studies indicating as such) but no theoretical biological basis for identification with a different race, as race is a social construct. It seems like you agree that it's at least theoretically possible for someone to have a male brain in a female body or vice versa and that race is a social construct, so I'm confused as to why you asked the question I originally replied to. If you have a male brain in a female body type situation, I don't understand why you think that person's delusional for saying they are uncomfortable with having the body of a sex they don't identify with and wanting to change it since that would be easier and more ethical than changing around the various physical components of the brain, assuming therapy or psychiatric treatment is ineffective and transitioning alleviates symptoms of dysphoria.

      The point of the "If no..." section of my reply was basically a trap. I don't think anyone could reasonably say that someone being forcefully and secretly made to be a different sex than what they identify with, even since birth, wouldn't be harmful, even if only potentially, and therefore there must be some biological basis for sex identity. If there is a biological basis, by which I mean someone having a brain like that of their identified sex, for feeling that you were born in the wrong body, how can that be said to be at all similar to thinking you're a cat or chair, which has no possible biological basis?

      Do you know what androgen insensitivity syndrome is? People with this syndrome have XY chromosomes but appear as women (including secondary sex characteristics) and identify as women since birth but lack a uterus and have atrophied internal testicles even though they have a vagina. Before the discovery of chromosomes, it would have been impossible to tell if someone had AIS or not, and therefore if anyone appearing as a woman had XX or XY chromosomes. Even in the modern day, an incurious person with no medical problems who has AIS could live their entire life without even realizing they had XY chromosomes or were intersex. Do you think people with AIS who live as a woman are living a lie? Is the fact that their body has the female phenotype mean they're in a female body?

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      • #33
        PM, that strikes me as a reasonable argument.

        To stick what you said above in a series of logical alternatives.

        (1) We could believe that humans do not have a really strong innate sense of their gender identity in their minds, and that this is something that just develops over their early life as they learn about male and female and realize from their own body's physical appearance that they are male or female.
        => This is disproven by examples like David Reimer, where despite his body looking female and being raised as female, he had an innate sense that he was male.

        versus:
        (2) We could believe that humans do have a really strong innate sense of their gender identity in their minds, which is separate to anything they learn from society or observe from their own bodies.
        Then, within this (2), we have:
        (a) We could believe that this innate sense of their gender identity in their minds comes from their DNA being XX vs XY.
        => This is disproven by examples like AIS people who (tend to) hold an innate sense of their gender identity that agrees with their body's physical appearance but not with their DNA.

        versus:
        (b) We could believe that this really strong innate sense of their gender identity in their minds doesn't come from their DNA being XX vs XY.
        => This would predict that there might be individuals whose innate sense of their gender identity differed from their DNA's XX/XY-ness, and thus we would expect 'transgender' people to exist. They Indeed appear to exist.

        Whereas if you try to run the same logic at transrace people it totally falls over. For race, I think everyone agrees that (1) holds.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
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        • #34
          Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post

          The point of the "If no..." section of my reply was basically a trap. I don't think anyone could reasonably say that someone being forcefully and secretly made to be a different sex than what they identify with, even since birth, wouldn't be harmful, even if only potentially, and therefore there must be some biological basis for sex identity. If there is a biological basis, by which I mean someone having a brain like that of their identified sex, for feeling that you were born in the wrong body, how can that be said to be at all similar to thinking you're a cat or chair, which has no possible biological basis?
          1. How do you know when any trans person actually has the brain of the opposite sex? How do you test for that?

          2. We have always had feminine men and masculine women (for whatever reason). That doesn't make them the opposite sex, nor will they ever be the opposite sex.

          3. If we have no clear definition of 'woman', for instance, what is a transwoman trying to emulate? If not biological characteristics then what? Shifting, superficial cultural markers?

          Do you know what androgen insensitivity syndrome is? People with this syndrome have XY chromosomes but appear as women (including secondary sex characteristics) and identify as women since birth but lack a uterus and have atrophied internal testicles even though they have a vagina. Before the discovery of chromosomes, it would have been impossible to tell if someone had AIS or not, and therefore if anyone appearing as a woman had XX or XY chromosomes. Even in the modern day, an incurious person with no medical problems who has AIS could live their entire life without even realizing they had XY chromosomes or were intersex. Do you think people with AIS who live as a woman are living a lie? Is the fact that their body has the female phenotype mean they're in a female body?
          What does a physical abnormality have to do with the majority of those claiming that they are trans? Are you suggesting that all trans people are physically abnormal?

          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post

            I have a hard time understanding where the conflation between being transgender and transrace comes from as there is a theoretical biological basis for identification with the opposite sex (there are also a decent amount of studies indicating as such) but no theoretical biological basis for identification with a different race, as race is a social construct.
            Actually, race is a biological construct with fairly clear genetic hierarchical divisions. See here for a good summary of the issue.

            It seems like you agree that it's at least theoretically possible for someone to have a male brain in a female body or vice versa and that race is a social construct, so I'm confused as to why you asked the question I originally replied to.
            There is no such thing as a "male brain" or a "female brain"

            If you have a male brain in a female body type situation, I don't understand why you think that person's delusional for saying they are uncomfortable with having the body of a sex they don't identify with and wanting to change it since that would be easier and more ethical than changing around the various physical components of the brain, assuming therapy or psychiatric treatment is ineffective and transitioning alleviates symptoms of dysphoria.
            Well, since your initial premise is false, then the end result is just that they are uncomfortable in their own body. It is much less damaging to a person to treat their mental illness than to physically mutilate them and then have them take artificial hormones for the rest of their lives to be in a constant war with their chromosomes.

            That's what
            - She

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post



              Well, since your initial premise is false, then the end result is just that they are uncomfortable in their own body. It is much less damaging to a person to treat their mental illness than to physically mutilate them and then have them take artificial hormones for the rest of their lives to be in a constant war with their chromosomes.
              But it sure is profitable for those in the business (nothing better than a lifetime customer)

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
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              • #37
                Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post

                I have a hard time understanding where the conflation between being transgender and transrace comes from as there is a theoretical biological basis for identification with the opposite sex (there are also a decent amount of studies indicating as such) but no theoretical biological basis for identification with a different race, as race is a social construct. It seems like you agree that it's at least theoretically possible for someone to have a male brain in a female body or vice versa and that race is a social construct, so I'm confused as to why you asked the question I originally replied to. If you have a male brain in a female body type situation, I don't understand why you think that person's delusional for saying they are uncomfortable with having the body of a sex they don't identify with and wanting to change it since that would be easier and more ethical than changing around the various physical components of the brain, assuming therapy or psychiatric treatment is ineffective and transitioning alleviates symptoms of dysphoria.
                There are many mental illnesses that produce delusional thinking. Just because someone feels like a cat doesn't make them a cat, and playing along with that delusion will only cause the condition to continue. And trying to force society to go along with their delusion is another form of insanity altogether. If someone decides they are Napoleon or Jesus Christ, should we play along with them and even force society to go along with their delusion? I am guessing you will say "no" - so why should we go along with someone who is clearly male claiming they are really female? It is a delusion. The proper treatment for someone suffering a delusion is to break them out of the delusion not encourage it.


                The point of the "If no..." section of my reply was basically a trap. I don't think anyone could reasonably say that someone being forcefully and secretly made to be a different sex than what they identify with, even since birth, wouldn't be harmful, even if only potentially, and therefore there must be some biological basis for sex identity. If there is a biological basis, by which I mean someone having a brain like that of their identified sex, for feeling that you were born in the wrong body, how can that be said to be at all similar to thinking you're a cat or chair, which has no possible biological basis?
                There is no biological basis for thinking you are the opposite sex. That is purely a mental basis. Biologically their body and their brain are whatever sex their DNA says they are.

                Do you know what androgen insensitivity syndrome is? People with this syndrome have XY chromosomes but appear as women (including secondary sex characteristics) and identify as women since birth but lack a uterus and have atrophied internal testicles even though they have a vagina. Before the discovery of chromosomes, it would have been impossible to tell if someone had AIS or not, and therefore if anyone appearing as a woman had XX or XY chromosomes. Even in the modern day, an incurious person with no medical problems who has AIS could live their entire life without even realizing they had XY chromosomes or were intersex. Do you think people with AIS who live as a woman are living a lie? Is the fact that their body has the female phenotype mean they're in a female body?
                Who cares? That is a rare sexual mutation. It has nothing to do with a normal male thinking he is a woman or vice versa.


                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  PM, that strikes me as a reasonable argument.

                  To stick what you said above in a series of logical alternatives.

                  (1) We could believe that humans do not have a really strong innate sense of their gender identity in their minds, and that this is something that just develops over their early life as they learn about male and female and realize from their own body's physical appearance that they are male or female.
                  => This is disproven by examples like David Reimer, where despite his body looking female and being raised as female, he had an innate sense that he was male.

                  versus:
                  (2) We could believe that humans do have a really strong innate sense of their gender identity in their minds, which is separate to anything they learn from society or observe from their own bodies.
                  Then, within this (2), we have:
                  (a) We could believe that this innate sense of their gender identity in their minds comes from their DNA being XX vs XY.
                  => This is disproven by examples like AIS people who (tend to) hold an innate sense of their gender identity that agrees with their body's physical appearance but not with their DNA.

                  versus:
                  (b) We could believe that this really strong innate sense of their gender identity in their minds doesn't come from their DNA being XX vs XY.
                  => This would predict that there might be individuals whose innate sense of their gender identity differed from their DNA's XX/XY-ness, and thus we would expect 'transgender' people to exist. They Indeed appear to exist.

                  Whereas if you try to run the same logic at transrace people it totally falls over. For race, I think everyone agrees that (1) holds.
                  This is an excellent formalization of my argument. Much appreciated. I used to be against transitioning as treatment for trans people and thought all they needed was therapy to change their transgender identification "back" to cisgender. However, the more I looked into genetic sexual expression and intersex conditions the more I saw how there's a very reasonable, medically sound basis for the idea of the "brain of one sex in the other sex's body" description of dysphoria.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    1. How do you know when any trans person actually has the brain of the opposite sex? How do you test for that?

                    2. We have always had feminine men and masculine women (for whatever reason). That doesn't make them the opposite sex, nor will they ever be the opposite sex.

                    3. If we have no clear definition of 'woman', for instance, what is a transwoman trying to emulate? If not biological characteristics then what? Shifting, superficial cultural markers?

                    What does a physical abnormality have to do with the majority of those claiming that they are trans? Are you suggesting that all trans people are physically abnormal?
                    1. You can use an MRI to compare the brain structure of a trans person with the average brain structure of cis people of the same biological sex. There have been several studies that have done so. Outside of an imaging study, the practical method is to have them assessed by a team of doctors from different specialties and see how a patient responds to questioning and evaluation about their sex identification.

                    2. The difference is that feminine men and masculine women don't typically believe themselves to be born in the wrong body to the point it causes them constant mental distress.

                    3. Typical female phenotype (shape, characteristics) and social signifiers like clothing and societal grouping. The latter could be described as shifting, superficial cultural markers in part.

                    I would expect that some percentage of people who identify as trans may see their condition improve with mere therapy, but for the most part I believe the evidence indicates that trans people have different brains than cis people. So yes, they would be physically abnormal.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post

                      1. You can use an MRI to compare the brain structure of a trans person with the average brain structure of cis people of the same biological sex. There have been several studies that have done so. Outside of an imaging study, the practical method is to have them assessed by a team of doctors from different specialties and see how a patient responds to questioning and evaluation about their sex identification.
                      That's actually been debunked.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        Actually, race is a biological construct with fairly clear genetic hierarchical divisions. See here for a good summary of the issue.

                        There is no such thing as a "male brain" or a "female brain"

                        Well, since your initial premise is false, then the end result is just that they are uncomfortable in their own body. It is much less damaging to a person to treat their mental illness than to physically mutilate them and then have them take artificial hormones for the rest of their lives to be in a constant war with their chromosomes.
                        Even if you can use genetic clusters to define different races, there's two problems: 1. That's not how race is used by society. Italians used to be non-white, now they're white. Brazilians have races we don't have in the US. Societal racial groups develop because of historical context, not genetics. 2. Clusters don't work on the individual level. You can find greater genetic differences between two people of the same race then two people of different races. What's the point of defining race if individuals can't tell what race they belong to?

                        Male and female brain being defined as a brain that intrinsically, biologically identifies as male or female. The absence of dimorphism doesn't preclude functional differences, especially taking hormones into consideration.

                        Whatever treatment is most effective is to be determined by data and on a case by case basis. Attempting to handcuff medical professionals without any consideration for these factors is putting feelings over facts and is fundamentally anti-intellectual.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          It is much less damaging to a person to treat their mental illness than to physically mutilate them and then have them take artificial hormones for the rest of their lives to be in a constant war with their chromosomes.
                          This is false. Currently there are no treatments for their mental condition. That's why physical alterations are the go-to because they're the only known way of bringing the mind and body closer to agreement.

                          If there was an actual known psychological treatment for gender dysphoria, then your point would be valid, and I would agree with you. But unless you can invent one for us, your argument fails.
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                            That's actually been debunked.
                            Cool! Show me a study that indicates there's no difference in the stria terminalis specifically.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              There are many mental illnesses that produce delusional thinking. Just because someone feels like a cat doesn't make them a cat, and playing along with that delusion will only cause the condition to continue. And trying to force society to go along with their delusion is another form of insanity altogether. If someone decides they are Napoleon or Jesus Christ, should we play along with them and even force society to go along with their delusion? I am guessing you will say "no" - so why should we go along with someone who is clearly male claiming they are really female? It is a delusion. The proper treatment for someone suffering a delusion is to break them out of the delusion not encourage it.


                              There is no biological basis for thinking you are the opposite sex. That is purely a mental basis. Biologically their body and their brain are whatever sex their DNA says they are.

                              Who cares? That is a rare sexual mutation. It has nothing to do with a normal male thinking he is a woman or vice versa.
                              There is no hypothetical biological mechanism by which someone may justifiably claim to be a cat or Napoleon or Jesus Christ. You can't say that about claiming to be the opposite sex.

                              So what happens if a genetic or in-utero abnormality disrupts their DNA "telling" someone what sex they are? How is at all reasonable to say that this is impossible, especially when there's studies indicating possible genetic and neurological differences between trans and cis people?

                              It matters because it's an example of a discrepancy between what DNA is supposed to do and what actually ends up happening. A group of people have XY chromosomes and yet it would be absurd to say they are delusional, actually men, and should live as men. Why do you allow for AIS to be a rare sexual mutation but not being trans?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post

                                1. You can use an MRI to compare the brain structure of a trans person with the average brain structure of cis people of the same biological sex. There have been several studies that have done so. Outside of an imaging study, the practical method is to have them assessed by a team of doctors from different specialties and see how a patient responds to questioning and evaluation about their sex identification.
                                First, so let's use a MRI to weed out those who claim to be trans but aren't. And what do you mean by sex identification? Cultural markers? Biological?

                                2. The difference is that feminine men and masculine women don't typically believe themselves to be born in the wrong body to the point it causes them constant mental distress.
                                How do you know? This whole born in the wrong body thing is relatively new. Perhaps the ideology is what is causing stress. Introducing the the idea that a masculine woman or a feminine man could actually be in the wrong body. Which pretty much was unheard of 40 years ago or so.

                                3. Typical female phenotype (shape, characteristics) and social signifiers like clothing and societal grouping. The latter could be described as shifting, superficial cultural markers in part.
                                Except a male can never actually be a female and vice versa. So you are left with superficial cultural markers. And you are left with a definition of 'woman' that is reduced to stereotypes.

                                I would expect that some percentage of people who identify as trans may see their condition improve with mere therapy, but for the most part I believe the evidence indicates that trans people have different brains than cis people. So yes, they would be physically abnormal.
                                I would like to see the studies - how many of those who claim to be trans actually have different brains?
                                Last edited by seer; 03-11-2023, 05:52 AM.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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