What is a Woman?

[Gondwanaland]

Really?



… says the modern Republican intellectual

All Title IX cases she would need to recuse herself from because she can't define woman nor is she a biologist, so how can she make a decision on it? She'd really have to recuse herself from anything to do with "woman's right to choose", because of the same issue.

[Starlight]

All Title IX cases she would need to recuse herself from because she can't define woman nor is she a biologist, so how can she make a decision on it? She'd really have to recuse herself from anything to do with "woman's right to choose", because of the same issue.

I thought her explanation was quite reasonable: That as a justice, she is used to hearing the evidence presented by both sides and thinking about it and then ruling on it, rather than knowing the answer in advance herself.

When it comes to controversial and evolving social issues that seems a much better answer than someone wrongly assuming themselves an expert on the matter because they did one biology class at high school.

[Gondwanaland]

I thought her explanation was quite reasonable: That as a justice, she is used to hearing the evidence presented by both sides and thinking about it and then ruling on it, rather than knowing the answer in advance herself.

When it comes to controversial and evolving social issues that seems a much better answer than someone wrongly assuming themselves an expert on the matter because they did one biology class at high school.

She didn't give an explanation. She just said she couldn't answer it without being a biologist. Which in itself shoots transgenderism in the foot as that means gender is biological, not a social construct like transradicals claim.

Her answer was a weak attempt to not have to answer a question, and she ended up looking like a moron both ways instead.

[Starlight]

She didn't give an explanation. She just said she couldn't answer it without being a biologist.

Video.

KBJ: "Senator, in my work as a judge what I do is I address disputes. If there's a dispute about a definition, people make arguments, and I look at the law, and [then] I decide. So I'm not... [the one providing the answers in advance]."

Which in itself shoots transgenderism in the foot as that means gender is biological, not a social construct like transradicals claim.

If you think her answer implied a position you support, why are you whining about it?

[Gondwanaland]

Video.

KBJ: "Senator, in my work as a judge what I do is I address disputes. If there's a dispute about a definition, people make arguments, and I look at the law, and [then] I decide. So I'm not... [the one providing the answers in advance]."

If you think her answer implied a position you support, why are you whining about it?

You appear to be the one whining here.

[oxmixmudd]

That would only work as an excuse if she hadn't inadvertently trapped herself. Now she's going to be labelled transphobic for the implications of her statement. In other words she got out of the frying pan and into the fire.

She didn't trap herself. And there needs to be some sense brought into the discussion anyway. A trans person is neither a pervert nor the exact equivalent of the natural gender they identify with. At some point someone has to find a reasonable middle ground that respects both the the science relating to the biology of sex AND the physical and psychological realities that drive a person to be transgender. Right now people are either hostile and abusive to transgender attempts to live according to the gender they identify with, or they are unrealistically accepting, pretending a trans man or women is in all ways the equivalent of their cis gender counterpart.

Reality just isn't found in either camp.

[Starlight]

She didn't trap herself. And there needs to be some sense brought into the discussion anyway. A trans person is neither a pervert nor the exact equivalent of the natural gender they identify with. At some point someone has to find a reasonable middle ground that respects both the the science relating to the biology of sex AND the physical and psychological realities that drive a person to be transgender. Right now people are either hostile and abusive to transgender attempts to live according to the gender they identify with, or they are unrealistically accepting, pretending a trans man or women is in all ways the equivalent of their cis gender counterpart.

Reality just isn't found in either camp.

Yeah, like you I'm pretty neutral on this topic. It has a lot of nuance which extremists on either side don't seem interested in.

"I learned what the words 'man' and 'woman' meant when I was 4, and don't have the brainpower or interest in rethinking that topic, so I'll just declare my view to be 'science' even though I don't know any science" that so many conservatives seem to jump to is a pretty appalling position. But equally, as you note, people pretending trans and cis people are exactly the same is engaging just as much in delusional wishful thinking.

[seer]

Right now people are either hostile and abusive to transgender attempts to live according to the gender they identify with....

No one I know is stopping a trans from living as they want. What we are fighting against is the idea that we need to accept their identity, a trans woman is still a man, he is a he, not a she and the laws that are allowing biological males to use the girls rest rooms and showers, and allowing biological males to compete in women's sports. And the trans propaganda that is seeping into public schools at ever earlier grades. No Jim, the right did not start this war.

[oxmixmudd]

No one I know is stopping a trans from living as they want. What we are fighting against is the idea that we need to accept their identity, a trans woman is still a man, he is a he, not a she and the laws that are allowing biological males to use the girls rest rooms and showers, and allowing biological males to compete in women's sports. And the trans propaganda that is seeping into public schools at ever earlier grades. No Jim, the right did not start this war.

Like I said, there is on the left an unrealistic expectation that cis == trans on every level.

However, you are acting as if the sorts of mockery that fills this thread is of no consequence. Or the declarations you will never use their pronouns. You probably don't care, but the simple reality is if you ever have a trans child and you want to increase the likelyhood they will become suicidal, refuse to use their preferred pronouns. That isn't just orooaganda, or what 'liberals' want you to believe, it is the simple reality of what trans is

Trans people are most importantly people. And as people, even if Christians struggle to reconcile what science has to say about what trans is wrt OT injunctions not to allow cross dressing, they still deserve the basics of respect and kindness and love from Christian people. We are not here as judges of people in the world. We are here to hold out the Gospel, the hope of eternal life in Christ.

And refusing to use their pronouns as they ask or mocking them is the opposite of respect, love, or kindness.

[tabibito]

Trans people are most importantly people. And as people, even if Christians struggle to reconcile what science has to say about what trans is wrt OT injunctions not to allow cross dressing, they still deserve the basics of respect and kindness and love from Christian people. We are not here as judges of people in the world. We are here to hold out the Gospel, the hope of eternal life in Christ.

Quite often in this thread I have found myself in agreement with at least some of what you say (as with the above.) Then there are comments such as the one below

And refusing to use their pronouns as they ask or mocking them is the opposite of respect, love, or kindness.

Affirming that the false is true doesn't achieve any good outcome.

[CivilDiscourse]

Affirming that the false is true doesn't achieve any good outcome.

I'm torn on this statement. The problem I have is that common sense says that if you take that tactic with other stuff, you would rightly be considered a horrible person.

Take a re-married divorced person. This person, depending on your interpretation of the bible's stance on divorce, is committing adultery, and is still married to their original spouse. Can you imagine someone constantly refusing to refer to their current spouse as their "husband/wife" because that would be a lie, and constantly reminding them that they are having an affair? Or when the person is dating, someone keeps telling them "you should go back to your husband/wife".

To me, it reeks of the excuse I hear people say when they go "It's not rude if it's the truth."

[Cerebrum123]

She didn't trap herself. And there needs to be some sense brought into the discussion anyway. A trans person is neither a pervert nor the exact equivalent of the natural gender they identify with. At some point someone has to find a reasonable middle ground that respects both the the science relating to the biology of sex AND the physical and psychological realities that drive a person to be transgender. Right now people are either hostile and abusive to transgender attempts to live according to the gender they identify with, or they are unrealistically accepting, pretending a trans man or women is in all ways the equivalent of their cis gender counterpart.

Reality just isn't found in either camp.

What you are calling "extreme" with regards to trans people on the left is more and more the norm. Any feminist who isn't 100% pro trans is being called a TERF*. Some are even getting doxxed or are receiving death threats. Conservatives can be unrealistic in their view on the issue too, but they are not the only ones downplaying the psychological aspect. Mental health and psychology is downplayed by many people throughout the world conservative or liberal, gay or straight, there is no dividing line on that.

My position is closer to yours regarding transgender individuals than many on this board. Gender Dysphoria is terrible for your mental health. The only treatment said to relieve it is transitioning. For those not willing to do that there isn't much they can do.

*Trans exclusionary radical feminist for those who don't know.

[tabibito]

I'm torn on this statement. The problem I have is that common sense says that if you take that tactic with other stuff, you would rightly be considered a horrible person.

Take a re-married divorced person. This person, depending on your interpretation of the bible's stance on divorce, is committing adultery, and is still married to their original spouse. Can you imagine someone constantly refusing to refer to their current spouse as their "husband/wife" because that would be a lie, and constantly reminding them that they are having an affair? Or when the person is dating, someone keeps telling them "you should go back to your husband/wife".

To me, it reeks of the excuse I hear people say when they go "It's not rude if it's the truth."

It can be rude if it is the truth, assuredly. I recall someone being told many years ago (with the actual language tidied) that he was not being opposed for telling the truth, but for using the truth as a weapon in the most offensive way possible.

The pronouncement on divorce is not as clear cut as people make it out to be, but it is not the free for all that came to be allowable under the law of Moses, and certainly nothing to be considered lightly -
Jesus (thankfully) stopped just a hair-breadth short of actually prohibiting divorce except for circumstances of infidelity, otherwise domestic violence (and other issues) would not be valid grounds for divorce.

[CivilDiscourse]

It can be rude if it is the truth, assuredly. I recall someone being told many years ago (with the actual language tidied) that he was not being opposed for telling the truth, but for using the truth as a weapon in the most offensive way possible.

The pronouncement on divorce is not as clear cut as people make it out to be, but it is not the free for all that came to be allowable under the law of Moses, and certainly nothing to be considered lightly -
Jesus (thankfully) stopped just a hair-breadth short of actually prohibiting divorce except for circumstances of infidelity, otherwise domestic violence (and other issues) would not be valid grounds for divorce.

As I said, depending on your interpretation of the bible's stance on divorce. Christian sects have different stances on what they believe the truth of that statement is. Yours may or may not match the catholic interpretation, or the English Orthodox, etc. Each person also believes their interpretation is the truth.

Which goes back to what I was saying:

Can you imagine someone constantly refusing to refer to their current spouse as their "husband/wife" because "that would be a lie", and constantly reminding them that they are having an affair? Or when the person is dating, someone keeps telling them "you should go back to your husband/wife".

I see dealing with Transgender people the same way. Constantly "correcting" them (or whatever you want to call it), just makes the person doing so an unpleasant person to be around.

[tabibito]

As I said, depending on your interpretation of the bible's stance on divorce. Christian sects have different stances on what they believe the truth of that statement is. Yours may or may not match the catholic interpretation, or the English Orthodox, etc. Each person also believes their interpretation is the truth.

Which goes back to what I was saying:

Can you imagine someone constantly refusing to refer to their current spouse as their "husband/wife" because "that would be a lie", and constantly reminding them that they are having an affair? Or when the person is dating, someone keeps telling them "you should go back to your husband/wife".

I see dealing with Transgender people the same way. Constantly "correcting" them (or whatever you want to call it), just makes the person doing so an unpleasant person to be around.

I wouldn't use the incorrect pronoun (false) - but neither would I use the correct pronoun (confrontational) - although referring to people of either gender as "he" can be grammatically correct.