Cuomo, Sheriffs, and Dictators

[mikewhitney]

Which part is backwards? Conservatives not trusting science? I mean, you and I might be the exception. But I know people that flat out told me they trusted Trump's opinion on the coronavirus more than the PhD/MDs that study this stuff for a living. And, sadly, a ton of people I know seem to buy into that line of reasoning. So the studies might not be too far off. I think it's rooted in insecurity and/or distrust towards those with higher education credentials. Almost like an 'us versus them' mentality. I don't understand why that exists, but....apparently it does.

I have heard plenty of credentialed experts showing that coronavirus is normally treatable and is best approached with Hydroxycholoroquine with Zinc or with high dosage Vitamin D, as well as other good treatments. I have heard experts say that masks are of little help (and can hurt people, especially since most people are not infectious) and that the PCR test is not useful for testing the general population. So, indeed I trust scientists. I go to the studies in many cases and see which are apparently valid. Also, the problems I have found have often been described by medical specialists as being problematic studies. Usually the problems are pretty clear once you have an idea of the protocols shown effective in the field.

[Electric Skeptic]

Governor Cuomo issued an executive order limiting in person gatherings to 10 people including inside private residents.

Several local sheriffs said they aren't going to count cars around houses and check on number of residents including on Thanksgiving Day. One sheriff argued that he would need a search warrant to enter the house to count people and then he has nothing to arrest them on.

Governor Cuomo says his executive order gives them the right to enter a house and arrest people for violating the restrictions. He then said sheriffs who didn't enforce the order can't pick and chose which laws to enforce and if they day, the sheriffs are dictators.

Now I admit I'm a little conflicted. On the one hand, I believe the laws should be enforced. On the other hand, I know the laws are not always enforced. I was let off with a warning once when pulled over for speeding so that speeding law wasn't enforced.

On the other hand, I'm not sure an executive order voids constitutional protections against unreasonable search and seizure. I get the need for safety but this doesn't feel right.

I do think Governor Cuomo overreached by calling sheriffs dictators for not enforcing his executive order. After all Governor Cuomo issued the executive order so if anything that makes him the dictator.

I see this as a conflict between balancing public safety and individual rights and I'm not sure what the correct answer is.

Here's more detail from a local TV station: https://www.whec.com/coronavirus/enf...rings/5928570/ https://www.whec.com/news/governor-c...33088/?cat=565

I agree that many of the restrictions and rules around them are unconstitutional. Unfortunately, many leaders are in the position where if they don't do something, COVID will just get worse and more people will die. Americans (as a whole) won't follow the science and do what the medical authorities tell them to do, so leaders overreach and try to make them do it. In other countries around the world where the leaders were able to do that, it's worked well. Meanwhile the US, where that hasn't been done, is leading the world in COVID cases and deaths.

[rogue06]

I agree that many of the restrictions and rules around them are unconstitutional. Unfortunately, many leaders are in the position where if they don't do something, COVID will just get worse and more people will die. Americans (as a whole) won't follow the science and do what the medical authorities tell them to do, so leaders overreach and try to make them do it. In other countries around the world where the leaders were able to do that, it's worked well. Meanwhile the US, where that hasn't been done, is leading the world in COVID cases and deaths.

Of course it doesn't help when many of these same leaders don't follow their own rules. Just heard about a couple of mayors in California getting caught doing the rules for thee and not for me thing.

[NorrinRadd]

We'd have 50% fewer deaths if evil mostly Dem governors had not decided to sacrifice our elders in lack-of-care facilities, and partisan sci-o-crats had not decided to deride and obstruct use of HCQ.

[rogue06]

We'd have 50% fewer deaths if evil mostly Dem governors had not decided to sacrifice our elders in lack-of-care facilities, and partisan sci-o-crats had not decided to deride and obstruct use of HCQ.

Hydroxychloroquine has been shown to have at best very limited use in treating the Chicom coronavirus, but the forcing of of nursing homes to house patients that tested positive for the disease was nothing short of criminal

[Thoughtful Monk]

I agree that many of the restrictions and rules around them are unconstitutional. Unfortunately, many leaders are in the position where if they don't do something, COVID will just get worse and more people will die. Americans (as a whole) won't follow the science and do what the medical authorities tell them to do, so leaders overreach and try to make them do it. In other countries around the world where the leaders were able to do that, it's worked well. Meanwhile the US, where that hasn't been done, is leading the world in COVID cases and deaths.

I think in all this everyone is missing the significance of the American Revolution. The USA was founded with the idea of we can make our own choices better than some other party can, In school, I remember learning about "Rugged Individualism" and how the individual makes their own life. This is different from Europe where the governments have been settled for a longer time and I think conformity to government wishes is more emphasized than here.

Unfortunately, I don't think our leaders realize the best they can do is influence and not control (or least they can't control for a long period of time). They should be saying you should do this and this and if you don't these will be the consequences. And as has been mentioned elsewhere, lead by example and give the appearance of rules for you but not for me. After doing this, they just have to stand back and let what happens, happen. I think we have a myth in the USA that you can control more things than you really can.

[thormas]

I have heard plenty of credentialed experts showing that coronavirus is normally treatable and is best approached with Hydroxycholoroquine with Zinc or with high dosage Vitamin D, as well as other good treatments. I have heard experts say that masks are of little help (and can hurt people, especially since most people are not infectious) and that the PCR test is not useful for testing the general population. So, indeed I trust scientists. I go to the studies in many cases and see which are apparently valid. Also, the problems I have found have often been described by medical specialists as being problematic studies. Usually the problems are pretty clear once you have an idea of the protocols shown effective in the field.

Seriously? Plenty of experts as opposed to the numerous experts we hear from who are part of the government. Masks of little use?

I trust scientists also and I have heard nothing like this from 'experts.' But I am curious who they are.

[thormas]

I agree that many of the restrictions and rules around them are unconstitutional. Unfortunately, many leaders are in the position where if they don't do something, COVID will just get worse and more people will die. Americans (as a whole) won't follow the science and do what the medical authorities tell them to do, so leaders overreach and try to make them do it. In other countries around the world where the leaders were able to do that, it's worked well. Meanwhile the US, where that hasn't been done, is leading the world in COVID cases and deaths.

Good points. It is a difficult and even a tragic situation made more difficult by the refusal of some to just try a common approach until we get a vaccine - that hopefully they will take but not betting the ranch on that.

[rogue06]

I agree that many of the restrictions and rules around them are unconstitutional. Unfortunately, many leaders are in the position where if they don't do something, COVID will just get worse and more people will die. Americans (as a whole) won't follow the science and do what the medical authorities tell them to do, so leaders overreach and try to make them do it. In other countries around the world where the leaders were able to do that, it's worked well. Meanwhile the US, where that hasn't been done, is leading the world in COVID cases and deaths.

We have the most diagnosed cases because we've done far more testing. We have the most deaths because anyone who dies that is diagnosed with it has it listed as the cause of death even if they were on death's door when they got it^[1].

And in some countries they haven't a clue how many deaths there have been. The bodies are disposed of without diagnosis because they just don't have the ability to make examinations of everyone who has died -- especially the further you get from their largest cities. And for the longest time North Korea denied having any cases whatsoever when it was obvious that all available evidence suggests the exact opposite -- that they are being ravaged by it. Tyrannical dictatorships have a good reason to do this. They can not afford to look ineffectual. They need to maintain an illusion of being all powerful

And then you have China. It is hard to take their "official" numbers seriously.






1 In a way this sort of reminds me of why we have a higher rate of infant mortality than many other Western nations. Different measuring systems are used. Many of those that have lower rates don't include deaths until the infant reaches a certain age whereas we include those who die moments after delivery.

[thormas]

We have the most diagnosed cases because we've done far more testing. We have the most deaths because anyone who dies that is diagnosed with it has it listed as the cause of death even if they were on death's door when they got it^[1].

And in some countries they haven't a clue how many deaths there have been. The bodies are disposed of without diagnosis because they just don't have the ability to make examinations of everyone who has died -- especially the further you get from their largest cities. And for the longest time North Korea denied having any cases whatsoever when it was obvious that all available evidence suggests the exact opposite -- that they are being ravaged by it. Tyrannical dictatorships have a good reason to do this. They can not afford to look ineffectual. They need to maintain an illusion of being all powerful

And then you have China. It is hard to take their "official" numbers seriously.






1 In a way this sort of reminds me of why we have a higher rate of infant mortality than many other Western nations. Different measuring systems are used. Many of those that have lower rates don't include deaths until the infant reaches a certain age whereas we include those who die moments after delivery.

And we should do even more testing. As for the deaths this has been addressed by medical experts: simply if these people did not have COVID they would not have died - of course if someone was on death's door they might have died soon but was that death hastened by COVID or their suffering greater? And how many of the 267k plus were actually on death's door? All in all it seems that COVID is the culprit.

Good point about dictatorships.

[Thoughtful Monk]

Seriously? Plenty of experts as opposed to the numerous experts we hear from who are part of the government. Masks of little use?

I trust scientists also and I have heard nothing like this from 'experts.' But I am curious who they are.

Just because the expert is from the government doesn't make their statements correct.

Just because the expert is outside the government doesn't make their statements correct.

There are plenty of examples through history of government experts being wrong and likewise non-government experts being wrong.

The problem today is there are so many opinions on topics available that the average person with no real knowledge of the subject can tell who is right and who is wrong.

[thormas]

Just because the expert is from the government doesn't make their statements correct.

Just because the expert is outside the government doesn't make their statements correct.

There are plenty of examples through history of government experts being wrong and likewise non-government experts being wrong.

The problem today is there are so many opinions on topics available that the average person with no real knowledge of the subject can tell who is right and who is wrong.

True on both counts, however given some of these independent, recognized experts (not administration toadies), I think we're good to go with their information.

[NorrinRadd]

Hydroxychloroquine has been shown to have at best very limited use in treating the Chicom coronavirus, but the forcing of of nursing homes to house patients that tested positive for the disease was nothing short of criminal

Isn't Dr. Risch still saying that the downplaying and outright restrictions on HCQ have by now cost over 100,000 lives?

[mikewhitney]

Isn't Dr. Risch still saying that the downplaying and outright restrictions on HCQ have by now cost over 100,000 lives?

This reduction sounds right. The correct use of HCQ cures people 64% as seen in the summary on c19study.com. Late treatment still helps on 24% of the patients.

High doses of Vitamin D has a better record. Most of this is helping people aged 70 and more.

The benefit we should have had with HCQ was its earliest successes -- before we heard of Vitamin D being used. So HCQ was known when it could have helped the earlier patients.

[mikewhitney]

True on both counts, however given some of these independent, recognized experts (not administration toadies), I think we're good to go with their information.

The problem we are having now is that WHO is in the hands of Gates and a communist head of the group. Fauci also is a bureaucrat who has mishandled everything in the past and present.

The media, youtube, twitter, google and facebook are censoring the broad discussion as if stopping debate will save us. This are the same media that are saying there is absolutely no fraud in the elections.