More than ever - SCHOOL CHOICE

[Joel]

The argument against school choice that I have seen in recent years is that the people who care about a good education are the ones leaving, which will make government schools ever worse. Instead those people should all stay and work to make government schools great.

There are various problems with this argument.
One is that the people who care about a good education don't agree with each other on the definition of education or the means of achieving a good education. Thus attempts by all of them to make one school great will mean political war. Peace requires the freedom to try out differing ideas.

Another is that the freedom to try out those differing ideas in parallel is more likely to result in the discovery of new and better ideas. And competition among the ideas may test their fruits, as well as spur them on toward excellence. This is one reason why central planning is always worse than the alternative.

Another is that there may be systemic or economic obstacles to changing the government school, and it may be more effective to start a new school. This is increasingly true as control of government schools shifts away from local control toward state and federal control.

[Cow Poke]

The argument against school choice that I have seen in recent years is that the people who care about a good education are the ones leaving, which will make government schools ever worse. Instead those people should all stay and work to make government schools great.

Yes, punish everybody equally.

There are various problems with this argument.
One is that the people who care about a good education don't agree with each other on the definition of education or the means of achieving a good education. Thus attempts by all of them to make one school great will mean political war. Peace requires the freedom to try out differing ideas.

I'd have to disagree - I think most parents want a safe environment for their kids, want teachers to have the power to discipline, and want the main focus to be on education, not social engineering.

Another is that the freedom to try out those differing ideas in parallel is more likely to result in the discovery of new and better ideas. And competition among the ideas may test their fruits, as well as spur them on toward excellence. This is one reason why central planning is always worse than the alternative.

Yeah!

Another is that there may be systemic or economic obstacles to changing the government school, and it may be more effective to start a new school.

I think if school choice is allowed, new schools will be started, and the "good" teachers from the failing public schools will be hired for them. When the failed schools realize they have to compete for students, they may wake up and realize they have to give the parents what they want, instead of having the "we're the education professionals, and you're just the parents" attitude.

[Sparko]

we don't need no education.

[Joel]

There are various problems with this argument.
One is that the people who care about a good education don't agree with each other on the definition of education or the means of achieving a good education. Thus attempts by all of them to make one school great will mean political war. Peace requires the freedom to try out differing ideas.

I'd have to disagree - I think most parents want a safe environment for their kids, want teachers to have the power to discipline, and want the main focus to be on education, not social engineering.

Yes, there are some goals that virtually everyone agrees on, like having a safe environment. But people disagree on what is necessary for that. The bathroom political battle is an example. Fights over guns and gun-free zones would be another.

The fact that you have to argue and fight for "teachers to have the power to discipline, and want the main focus to be on education, not social engineering" are also examples of what I'm talking about. It implies that others disagree with you.

As I said, there is also disagreement about the definition and purpose of education. For some the main goal is making people who are productive in the marketplace (for example wanting increased focus on STEM). Others have primarily aimed at producing loyal citizens. Others have primarily aimed at producing good Christians and/or wise and virtuous human beings. Or instilling conservative/liberal/progressive/marxist/etc views. Or various goals of social engineering. Or various combinations of such things with varying weightings and priorities.

People disagree on the means of achieving their goals too. They disagree on both the content and on the methodology.

Regarding content, people disagree for example on which subjects ought to be taught, how many subjects, and how much emphasis and time should be allocated among the subjects selected. Or whether there should be a distinction of subjects at all rather than integrated, holistic study. Similar disagreements arise within subjects, regarding what things to include/omit, what to emphasize. And disagreements over whether to mainly hand down a body of accepted knowledge (accepted by the person advocating it) vs teaching controversies and how to think and encouraging students to come to their own conclusions. Thus various political battles over textbooks.

Regarding method, people disagree on the sequence of subjects and subject matter. People disagree on whether to advance in all subjects simultaneously or teach one subject at a time. There have been political battles over different ways of teaching mathematics, and over different ways of teaching reading. People disagree on whether new technology should be leveraged as much as possible, with others wanting to keep their kids away from "screens" completely. Some argue against the normal government-school structure of rigid discipline, class schedule, bells, lining up, strict obedience, etc. Some argue against the usual practice of age-segregation. Some argue against advancing students by age from grade to grade in lock-step, and instead favor each students advancing at their own pace. People disagree on how much, and how, education should be tailored to each individual student. People disagree on how much students should have independence and choice over their education. People disagree on how much rote memorization ought to be used.

There are disagreements over how (or even whether) to evaluate how well teachers/schools are doing in pursuit of whatever goal(s) have been chosen. There are disagreements over how much to standardize education among teachers/schools.

These are just some examples.

[Catholicity]

Sea? Aye toorned owt fyne.

Cept that spelling. It looks like Elmer Fudd

[Catholicity]

Yes, punish everybody equally.



I'd have to disagree - I think most parents want a safe environment for their kids, want teachers to have the power to discipline, and want the main focus to be on education, not social engineering.



Yeah!



I think if school choice is allowed, new schools will be started, and the "good" teachers from the failing public schools will be hired for them. When the failed schools realize they have to compete for students, they may wake up and realize they have to give the parents what they want, instead of having the "we're the education professionals, and you're just the parents" attitude.

In Kansas we had really good teacher parent involvement, but the legislature stripped most of the funding from the schools. SO much so that some schools can't even open this fall. The supreme court even tried to veto the funding bill but it was passed back through the legislature again. The schools were told to raise their own money. Its gotten so bad that some cities have a sales ta on food of 10 percent and regular items of 15 percent. And Property taxes are massive. Many businesses have had to close and move over the border and the Kansas Governer got angry and asked the governer in Mo to stop giving incentives to small businesses because it was causing Kansas to lose money.

[Sparko]

Trout posted this on facebook today.

[stfoskey15]

Trout posted this on facebook today.

Some people must have had really horrible school experiences. In my public school we often discussed ideas and did our own research. It wasn't all memorizing material.

[Cow Poke]

Some people must have had really horrible school experiences. In my public school we often discussed ideas and did our own research. It wasn't all memorizing material.

Times, they are a'changin'. Ask any teacher in public schools what it means to "teach to the test".

[stfoskey15]

Times, they are a'changin'. Ask any teacher in public schools what it means to "teach to the test".

I graduated high school two months ago. Most teachers didn't primarily teach to the test. But my district was among the best (and quite possibly the best) in the state.

[Cow Poke]

I graduated high school two months ago. Most teachers didn't primarily teach to the test. But my district was among the best (and quite possibly the best) in the state.

Cool. If we had "school choice", others could go to schools like that.

[stfoskey15]

Cool. If we had "school choice", others could go to schools like that.

What exactly do you mean by school choice? As far as I know we already have homeschooling, private schools, charter schools, and magnet schools. Vouchers might work, but I imagine those would just make things worse for people who choose to stay with the public schools.

[Cow Poke]

What exactly do you mean by school choice?

Here's a website that describes it: https://www.edchoice.org/school-choi...school-choice/

As far as I know we already have homeschooling, private schools, charter schools, and magnet schools.

We pay school taxes (even if we don't have kids in school) but only the public schools are funded with that money. "School Choice" would allow parents to choose the school they want their children to attend, as long as it meets certain standards.

Vouchers might work, but I imagine those would just make things worse for people who choose to stay with the public schools.

Why would it make things worse? People would vote with their feet, so to speak, and the funding dollars would follow. When the public schools see an exodus of students, they'll be forced to deal with the fact that there must be a reason people are fleeing.

[Sparko]

Some people must have had really horrible school experiences. In my public school we often discussed ideas and did our own research. It wasn't all memorizing material.

What really has me curious is that there are 14 other Stfoskey's out there?

[Joel]

The state takes a large chunk of my money (and from all my neighbors), gives it to the state school, and then says, "Thank goodness that we're providing you with 'free' education for your kids. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to afford to educate your kids."

It's like the Harry Browne joke, "Government is good at one thing: It knows how to break your legs, hand you a crutch, and say, "See, if it weren't for the government, you wouldn't be able to walk.""