Miracles

[JonathanL]

Like JimL, I do not let off the deluded and gullible, believing in the illusions, mirages and delusions of the world of Houdini that easily.

Well I guess it's good for those poor deluded and gullible fools that someone like you exists then, so you can set them back on the right track.

[Enjolras]

When I was eleven years old, I was once awakened, in the middle of the night, by an audible voice-- not a subconscious feeling or an inner monologue or a thought, but a loud, audible voice. It was not my own voice, and there was no one else in my room. The voice instructed me on how to pray in Tongues. As soon as the voice had finished speaking with me, I immediately ran to tell my parents what had happened.

You can imagine how such a thing would seem incredibly confirmatory to a person who truly believes in such things.

I've since changed my mind due to several reasons, foremost of which is the fact that I have since been diagnosed with occipital epilepsy-- the symptoms of which include auditory and visual hallucination. I have very good reason to believe that the epilepsy was present but undiagnosed at the time of the original event (I was diagnosed with chronic occipital migraines when I was in the third grade, and I had experienced some unexplained seizures in my youth). Furthermore, I have experienced other hallucinations in the years since. Some of these fit the mold of the original event almost perfectly-- I once woke up, hearing my brother speaking to me plain-as-day, despite the fact that he was three states away, at the time. Other hallucinations have been even stronger-- I once slammed on my brakes while driving at night because I saw the road ahead of me break open like a gaping maw with two glowing red eyes staring at me, and the sound of an earthquake rattling in my ears.

Even after these experiences, I didn't connect my hearing God's voice with my epilepsy until after I had lost my faith, because the event was so confirmatory of my pre-existent beliefs.

That's an amazing and revealing story; thanks for sharing.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Had you heard of praying in tongues before then? Like, were your parents Christians?

Yes. I grew up in a Charismatic, Evangelical Church.

[shunyadragon]

Well I guess it's good for those poor deluded and gullible fools that someone like you exists then, so you can set them back on the right track.

Right on!!!!!

[whag]

When I was eleven years old, I was once awakened, in the middle of the night, by an audible voice-- not a subconscious feeling or an inner monologue or a thought, but a loud, audible voice. It was not my own voice, and there was no one else in my room. The voice instructed me on how to pray in Tongues. As soon as the voice had finished speaking with me, I immediately ran to tell my parents what had happened.

You can imagine how such a thing would seem incredibly confirmatory to a person who truly believes in such things.

I've since changed my mind due to several reasons, foremost of which is the fact that I have since been diagnosed with occipital epilepsy-- the symptoms of which include auditory and visual hallucination. I have very good reason to believe that the epilepsy was present but undiagnosed at the time of the original event (I was diagnosed with chronic occipital migraines when I was in the third grade, and I had experienced some unexplained seizures in my youth). Furthermore, I have experienced other hallucinations in the years since. Some of these fit the mold of the original event almost perfectly-- I once woke up, hearing my brother speaking to me plain-as-day, despite the fact that he was three states away, at the time. Other hallucinations have been even stronger-- I once slammed on my brakes while driving at night because I saw the road ahead of me break open like a gaping maw with two glowing red eyes staring at me, and the sound of an earthquake rattling in my ears.

Even after these experiences, I didn't connect my hearing God's voice with my epilepsy until after I had lost my faith, because the event was so confirmatory of my pre-existent beliefs.

Thanks so much for sharing. I'm sure you've also heard of frontal lobe epilepsy, which in some cases causes the same kinds of feelings. The thing that intrigues me about this topic is that some people in the ANE might have had similar disorders, which obviously couldn't be diagnosed.


There's a good NOVA documentary that discusses FLE called God on the Brain. Have you seen it?

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Thanks so much for sharing. I'm sure you've also heard of frontal lobe epilepsy, which in some cases causes the same kinds of feelings. The thing that intrigues me about this topic is that some people in the ANE might have had similar disorders, which obviously couldn't be diagnosed.

I don't even think that it needs to go that far. I know plenty of people who sincerely claim to have had "spiritual" experiences, who did not seem to have any sort of neurological disorder. It's very easy to interpret something out-of-the-ordinary as having a supernatural origin when one is zealously dedicated to belief in the supernatural.

There's a good NOVA documentary that discusses FLE called God on the Brain. Have you seen it?

I have not. I'll have to check it out!

[whag]

I don't even think that it needs to go that far. I know plenty of people who sincerely claim to have had "spiritual" experiences, who did not seem to have any sort of neurological disorder. It's very easy to interpret something out-of-the-ordinary as having a supernatural origin when one is zealously dedicated to belief in the supernatural.

I have not. I'll have to check it out!

I agree about FLE not explaining all people who claim experience. I just think it's one of the extreme ends of the spectrum.

Researchers hypothesize that Ellen G. White started Seventh Day Adventism because of an injury she endured as a kid. A bully hit her face with a rock, after which she began to experience incredible visions.

[JimL]

I don't think this is quite fair.

Seer had an experience, one which he believes to have been supernatural in nature. That anecdote is directly related to this thread.

Thats true, but seer posted his original story in apologetics as well, so it was a fair response in that he was given instruction against this by his God. Just making a point. No big deal.

Whether or not one believes his story-- let alone his explanation for that story-- doesn't alter the fact that seer seems entirely sincere in his recollection of the events.

No doubt, he seems sincere, and of course anyone making such claims will seem sincere, and they may even believe it themselves, but that is no reaon for a reasonable person to believe them.

Seer is certainly not alone in this. I could name scores of people that I have personally known who have made claims to similar such anomalous events. I, myself, made such a claim when I still believed.

When you still believed? So are you denouncing the claim now?

[Tassman]

Thanks so much for sharing. I'm sure you've also heard of frontal lobe epilepsy, which in some cases causes the same kinds of feelings. The thing that intrigues me about this topic is that some people in the ANE might have had similar disorders, which obviously couldn't be diagnosed.


There's a good NOVA documentary that discusses FLE called God on the Brain. Have you seen it?

[seer]

Thats true, but seer posted his original story in apologetics as well, so it was a fair response in that he was given instruction against this by his God. Just making a point. No big deal.

In my defense, one of the reason I posted the event here was to get feedback from both believers and non-believers. I was and am, completely, open to a natural explanation. But the more I go over this and the more people I talk to about the incident the less likely I think there can be a natural cause. And Jim what do you mean by instruction from God? I received no such instructions.

No doubt, he seems sincere, and of course anyone making such claims will seem sincere, and they may even believe it themselves, but that is no reaon for a reasonable person to believe them.

I guess you would have to define reasonable in a non-arbitrary way. If not you are merely speaking of personal preferences and biases.

[seer]

Indeed there has been a case made that Paul's Damascene vision had the hallmarks of such a seizure as have Muhammad’s ecstatic experiences. Interesting possibility that the world's two largest religions had their origins in epilepsy.

Except you have no idea if that is the case.

[MaxVel]

I believe whag was the only one who suggested that miracles are counter-productive in convincing non-believers. He's an atheist who doesn't believe in miracles. I'd take what he says on the nature of miracles with a grain of salt.

Actually, it was Maxvel who said that, in post #72: "...in short, there are a whole bunch of prosaic practical reasons why such a thing could actually be counter-productive for God's point of view."

Woah, Dude! Way to take what I said way out of context.

In the quoted part I was responding to your hypothetical: 'why doesn't God get Christians to heal everyone in a hospital?'

I was not stating a general position on miracles as a whole. Note also the conditional I used. I was offering a possible reason why we don't see your hypothetical happening (AFAIK).

[MaxVel]

The next word after Miracle in almost all dictionaries is Mirage.

That's cute. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion. In some dictionaries the next word after Shunyadragon is Shyster.

[MaxVel]

The difference is that things like "human fallibility, confirmation bias, wanting to fit in” etc apply to belief in miracles for which there is no substantive evidence. It does not work both ways. The onus is on the believer to support the claims, not the sceptic to prove them wrong.



I think so. As Enjolras says there are a number of possible explanations for why people could believe a miracle occurred, ranging from 'confirmation bias' to ‘group think’, all of which are more likely than a non-natural occurrence such as a miracle.

I can't see how those are relevant to the hypothetical I presented. Is it irrational for the person to believe that God has healed her?

It is not a “fallacious approach” to be sceptical of anecdotal claims of miracles when there is no substantive evidence supporting them.



That’s just a variation of the tired old “you hate Jesus” nonsense. Citing lack of credible evidence for claims made doesn’t amount to "bias against" or "dislike".



Qualifications, such as lack of “substantiated” evidence regarding miracles etc, are necessary to avoid the response that personal testimony counts as evidence. It doesn’t except for the person concerned and there is no good reason to think that that person isn’t deluded.



There’s no need to be exceptionally smart to demand credible evidence for claims where only anecdotal evidence exist. This ranges from alleged alien abductions to claims of miracles.

Uhhh...Hello...?

There is no credible evidence to support rational belief in God that I'm aware of. Please explain.

I gave some reasons why you are (apparently) unaware of the above. It's not about miracles, and I didn't base my observations on your posts in this thread, but on your entire posting history here on TWeb (pre- and post-crash), plus your interactions with other posters and how they respond to you. It's as scientific as a psychology paper in a journal!

[whag]

I believe whag was the only one who suggested that miracles are counter-productive in convincing non-believers. He's an atheist who doesn't believe in miracles. I'd take what he says on the nature of miracles with a grain of salt.

I didn't say anything about the nature of miracles. My point was that there is no shortage of miracle stories AND the tellers' overconfidence in his story's persuasiveness can be a strike against him. One should be cautious in using it as an evangelism tool. It can backfire.