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Miracles

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  • Miracles

    The following is a lecture given by Dr. Craig Keener on the topic of supposed modern day miracles. I am interested in the skeptical response to these reports. If you do not believe that supernatural healing by God is involved here, what exactly do you think is going on? Please watch the video before commenting:


  • #2
    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
    The following is a lecture given by Dr. Craig Keener on the topic of supposed modern day miracles. I am interested in the skeptical response to these reports. If you do not believe that supernatural healing by God is involved here, what exactly do you think is going on? Please watch the video before commenting:


    There is no good reason to think that these “miracles” don’t have a natural explanation, even if it's not understood at this stage. They are all anecdotal and none have occurred under controlled circumstances, which suggest they are probably faith-conditioned wishful thinking rather than miracles. it's worth noting that Keener is a NT scholar, not a qualified member of the health profession.

    In fact there are many instances of spontaneous remissions, misdiagnoses and placebo effects. There are also many accounts of relapses of the condition after the so-called miracle healing – especially those of the hyped-up, emotionally charged Benny Hinn type.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • #3
      Tassman's response answered the question. I could not add anything.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        There is no good reason to think that these “miracles” don’t have a natural explanation, even if it's not understood at this stage. They are all anecdotal and none have occurred under controlled circumstances, which suggest they are probably faith-conditioned wishful thinking rather than miracles. it's worth noting that Keener is a NT scholar, not a qualified member of the health profession.

        In fact there are many instances of spontaneous remissions, misdiagnoses and placebo effects. There are also many accounts of relapses of the condition after the so-called miracle healing – especially those of the hyped-up, emotionally charged Benny Hinn type.
        Thankfully since I recently witnessed an event (which I posted here) that had no natural explanation, nor is there even a theory on how such a thing could happen, I can fairly confidently say that I experience something that had no natural cause. BTW Tass, it is your lucky day - I took you off ignore. I bet you feel like you hit the lottery!
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          Tassman's response answered the question. I could not add anything.
          Really Shuny, does that also apply to the miracles of Bahá’u’lláh?

          http://bahai-library.com/books/miracles/bahai.html
          Last edited by seer; 02-01-2015, 08:34 AM.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Really Shuny, does that also apply to the miracles of Bahá’u’lláh?

            http://bahai-library.com/books/miracles/bahai.html
            Actually, yes REALLY, it applies. Read carefully the source you referenced as well as the one that follows.

            Source: http://bahai-library.com/books/miracles/bahai.html



            Bahá’í Writings teach us that if we wish to discover whether any one of the Messengers was in reality a Prophet of God, we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history. The "…first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an Educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a Prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs. We do not need to mention miracles, saying that out of rock water gushed forth, for such miracles and statements may be denied and refused by those who hear them."

            © Copyright Original Source



            The view of miracles is distinctly different then the view presented in this video, and that held by many Christians. See below.

            In reference to the apparent Miracle 'witnessed' concerning the events of the execution of the Bab.

            Source: http://bahaiteachings.org/bahais-and-miracles



            No one knows if Khan’s 750 soldiers intentionally aimed high to sever the ropes; or if somehow the fusillade of bullets miraculously missed their target. Mid-19th Century weapons technology did not produce great accuracy, so a purely scientific explanation seems unlikely. But for Baha’is, the prospect of a miracle is not the point – Baha’is believe that miracles are no proof of the truth.

            "… for the Manifestations these miracles and wonderful signs have no importance. They do not even wish to mention them. For if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent." – Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 99.

            So are miracles possible? Certainly some Baha’is believe they have seen miraculous events occur, or even experienced them. However, the Baha’i Faith does not present miracles as a proof of anything; and in addition, Baha’u'llah specifically asked the Baha’is to not relate miracle stories, writing:

            "We entreat Our loved ones not to besmirch the hem of Our raiment with the dust of falsehood, neither to allow references to what they have regarded as miracles and prodigies to debase Our rank and station, or to mar the purity and sanctity of Our name." – Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 33

            martyrdom site, Many people have experienced supernatural feelings, emotions or events – “super”-natural meaning something not explainable by natural laws. Just about everyone who dreams has had a déjŕ-vu experience, where a dream will exactly recall or predict a future event. Just because science can’t yet explain such phenomenon doesn’t make them any less plausible – after all, every day we continue to make new scientific discoveries that were never thought possible before.

            © Copyright Original Source



            The bottom line in the Baha'i writings is the appearance of the miraculous or the 'super' natural is the natural not understood from the human perspective, and should not be presented as evidence or proof the existence of God nor the proof of the truth of one claim of Revelation over another or simply the natural course of events we at present do not understand.

            These citations concerning our human understanding of the claim of the 'Miraculous' as well as understanding scripture further exemplifies the underlying Baha'i principle of giving preeminence of science concerning the understanding the nature of physical existence and the events we observe.

            The notion that 'since science apparently cannot explain a miraculous claim therefore . . .' represents a deeply rooted fallacy belief among many Christians use to justify that the 'miraculous' is in some way a proof or witness of the certainty of their belief.

            Glad you asked. This is in full agreement with the view presented by Tassman.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-01-2015, 09:31 AM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Thankfully since I recently witnessed an event (which I posted here) that had no natural explanation, nor is there even a theory on how such a thing could happen, I can fairly confidently say that I experience something that had no natural cause. BTW Tass, it is your lucky day - I took you off ignore. I bet you feel like you hit the lottery!
              You're neglecting the fallible nature of your own humanness and understanding of the possibility of natural explanations for things we observe. You often make the point of attacking scientists for the problem of human fallibility, but neglect the problem of the weakness of your own perspective.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                Glad you asked. This is in full agreement with the view presented by Tassman.
                No you are not. Do actual miracles happen - yes or no? I'm not asking whether they are proof of anything.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  You're neglecting the fallible nature of your own humanness and understanding of the possibility of natural explanations for things we observe. You often make the point of attacking scientists for the problem of human fallibility, but neglect the problem of the weakness of your own perspective.

                  No Shuny, there was no question about what I saw or what the mountain biker who also witnessed the event saw. And there is no naturalistic explanation.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Thankfully since I recently witnessed an event (which I posted here) that had no natural explanation, nor is there even a theory on how such a thing could happen, I can fairly confidently say that I experience something that had no natural cause. BTW Tass, it is your lucky day - I took you off ignore. I bet you feel like you hit the lottery!
                    You mean the miracle of the floating fern?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by whag View Post
                      You mean the miracle of the floating fern?
                      Yes...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        No you are not. Do actual miracles happen - yes or no? I'm not asking whether they are proof of anything.
                        Read my previous post. Many answer is abundantly clear and specific. My post quoted the reference you cited specifically concerning the Baha'i view of miracles. Please respond to that post.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-01-2015, 02:12 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          No Shuny, there was no question about what I saw or what the mountain biker who also witnessed the event saw. And there is no naturalistic explanation.
                          Both mountain biker and you are fallible human beings.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by whag View Post
                            You mean the miracle of the floating fern?
                            Dr. Who got a new Tardis.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Read my previous post. Many answer is abundantly clear and specific. My post quoted the reference you cited specifically concerning the Baha'i view of miracles. Please respond to that post.
                              So you do believe in miracles. So you are actually opposed to Tass' position.

                              Tass said:There is no good reason to think that these “miracles” don’t have a natural explanation, even if it's not understood at this stage. They are all anecdotal and none have occurred under controlled circumstances, which suggest they are probably faith-conditioned wishful thinking rather than miracles

                              You don't agree with that Shuny, since you do believe in actual miracles.
                              Last edited by seer; 02-01-2015, 02:27 PM.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment

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