Miracles

[seer]

With all due respect seer, I don't think you really are open to a natural explanation. The evidence to date is that you resist all possible natural explanations, which indicates an emotional investment in your apparition. In psychoanalytic theory, this could be explained in terms of 'wish-fulfilment', i.e. "the satisfaction of a conscious or unconsciousness desire, need, or impulse through a dream, an hallucination or some other unconscious exercise of the imagination". Medical Dictionary.

Like I said Tass, I really am open to a natural explanation. Can you offer one that is keeping with the facts?

Except that you are approaching this back-to-front. Usually one assumes a natural explanation and then (if no such explanation is forthcoming ) maybe comes to the reluctant conclusion that it warrants a non-natural explanation. Whereas you have assumed from the outset that the explanation is supernatural and demand a natural explanation to prove you wrong.

That is exactly backward, during the whole event I was trying to figure out how "nature" was doing it. This is why I was looking for a spider web, why I kept running my hand around the fern while it was suspended. I was looking for some kind string or physical connection, or wind vortex. There wasn't any. I was not thinking miracle to begin with, not at all.

[JimL]

Like I said Tass, I really am open to a natural explanation. Can you offer one that is keeping with the facts?



That is exactly backward, during the whole event I was trying to figure out how "nature" was doing it. This is why I was looking for a spider web, why I kept running my hand around the fern while it was suspended. I was looking for some kind string or physical connection, or wind vortex. There wasn't any. I was not thinking miracle to begin with, not at all.

No disrespect seer, but one natural explanation for claims of the miraculous is that the whole story is BS, but no one could ever know that with certainty, excepting the claimant. That seems to be a common theme when it comes to miracle claims.

[seer]

No disrespect seer, but one natural explanation for claims of the miraculous is that the whole story is BS, but no one could ever know that with certainty, excepting the claimant. That seems to be a common theme when it comes to miracle claims.

Jim you can think and believe what you like. I know it is fact. And any objection is meaningless to the truth.

[JimL]

Jim you can think and believe what you like. I know it is fact. And any objection is meaningless to the truth.

Thats my point seer. Words alone are not enough to convince non believers. Would you believe me if i told you that i walked on water? Of course you wouldn't, you're not a naive idiot, you would suspect that I was lying, or dreaming or hallucinating, so why would you expect that others should think any differently about your claim? Besides, don't you think that for an all powerful God that was a rather pedestrian miracle (a floating leaf) for curing your doubts. He could have at least made you float!

[seer]

Thats my point seer. Words alone are not enough to convince non believers. Would you believe me if i told you that i walked on water? Of course you wouldn't, you're not a naive idiot, you would suspect that I was lying, or dreaming or hallucinating, so why would you expect that others should think any differently about your claim? Besides, don't you think that for an all powerful God that was a rather pedestrian miracle (a floating leaf) for curing your doubts. He could have at least made you float!

Jim, I'm not trying to get you to believe anything. I laid out the facts, period.

[whag]

Jim, I'm not trying to get you to believe anything. I laid out the facts, period.

No you aren't. You're presenting a meaningful event to you as fact thinking it especially persuasive. Maybe it was meant for you only, not used as some hackneyed evangelism tool. Have you ever considered that?

[seer]

No you aren't. You're presenting a meaningful event to you as fact thinking it especially persuasive. Maybe it was meant for you only, not used as some hackneyed evangelism tool. Have you ever considered that?

No whag, it is not hackneyed evangelism tool, it is a fact. And if this was from God I was not given instruction about whether or not to share it. And whether one finds the event, or me, persuasive, is strictly up to the individual.

[JimL]

No whag, it is not hackneyed evangelism tool, it is a fact. And if this was from God I was not given instruction about whether or not to share it. And whether one finds the event, or me, persuasive, is strictly up to the individual.

Yes you were, "don't cast your so called "pearls" before swine." (that would be us non-believers)".

[seer]

Yes you were, "don't cast your so called "pearls" before swine." (that would be us non-believers)".

Really Jim? There are only non-believers reading this thread?

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Yes you were, "don't cast your so called "pearls" before swine." (that would be us non-believers)".

I don't think this is quite fair.

Seer had an experience, one which he believes to have been supernatural in nature. That anecdote is directly related to this thread. Whether or not one believes his story-- let alone his explanation for that story-- doesn't alter the fact that seer seems entirely sincere in his recollection of the events. Seer is certainly not alone in this. I could name scores of people that I have personally known who have made claims to similar such anomalous events. I, myself, made such a claim when I still believed.

[whag]

I don't think this is quite fair.

Seer had an experience, one which he believes to have been supernatural in nature. That anecdote is directly related to this thread. Whether or not one believes his story-- let alone his explanation for that story-- doesn't alter the fact that seer seems entirely sincere in his recollection of the events. Seer is certainly not alone in this. I could name scores of people that I have personally known who have made claims to similar such anomalous events. I, myself, made such a claim when I still believed.

What miracle did you claim to experience when you believed, and why have you changed your mind?

[shunyadragon]

I don't think this is quite fair.

Seer had an experience, one which he believes to have been supernatural in nature. That anecdote is directly related to this thread. Whether or not one believes his story-- let alone his explanation for that story-- doesn't alter the fact that seer seems entirely sincere in his recollection of the events. Seer is certainly not alone in this. I could name scores of people that I have personally known who have made claims to similar such anomalous events. I, myself, made such a claim when I still believed.

Like JimL, I do not let off the deluded and gullible, believing in the illusions, mirages and delusions of the world of Houdini that easily.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

What miracle did you claim to experience when you believed, and why have you changed your mind?

When I was eleven years old, I was once awakened, in the middle of the night, by an audible voice-- not a subconscious feeling or an inner monologue or a thought, but a loud, audible voice. It was not my own voice, and there was no one else in my room. The voice instructed me on how to pray in Tongues. As soon as the voice had finished speaking with me, I immediately ran to tell my parents what had happened.

You can imagine how such a thing would seem incredibly confirmatory to a person who truly believes in such things.

I've since changed my mind due to several reasons, foremost of which is the fact that I have since been diagnosed with occipital epilepsy-- the symptoms of which include auditory and visual hallucination. I have very good reason to believe that the epilepsy was present but undiagnosed at the time of the original event (I was diagnosed with chronic occipital migraines when I was in the third grade, and I had experienced some unexplained seizures in my youth). Furthermore, I have experienced other hallucinations in the years since. Some of these fit the mold of the original event almost perfectly-- I once woke up, hearing my brother speaking to me plain-as-day, despite the fact that he was three states away, at the time. Other hallucinations have been even stronger-- I once slammed on my brakes while driving at night because I saw the road ahead of me break open like a gaping maw with two glowing red eyes staring at me, and the sound of an earthquake rattling in my ears.

Even after these experiences, I didn't connect my hearing God's voice with my epilepsy until after I had lost my faith, because the event was so confirmatory of my pre-existent beliefs.

[Adrift]

When I was eleven years old, I was once awakened, in the middle of the night, by an audible voice-- not a subconscious feeling or an inner monologue or a thought, but a loud, audible voice. It was not my own voice, and there was no one else in my room. The voice instructed me on how to pray in Tongues. As soon as the voice had finished speaking with me, I immediately ran to tell my parents what had happened.

You can imagine how such a thing would seem incredibly confirmatory to a person who truly believes in such things.

I've since changed my mind due to several reasons, foremost of which is the fact that I have since been diagnosed with occipital epilepsy-- the symptoms of which include auditory and visual hallucination. I have very good reason to believe that the epilepsy was present but undiagnosed at the time of the original event (I was diagnosed with chronic occipital migraines when I was in the third grade, and I had experienced some unexplained seizures in my youth). Furthermore, I have experienced other hallucinations in the years since. Some of these fit the mold of the original event almost perfectly-- I once woke up, hearing my brother speaking to me plain-as-day, despite the fact that he was three states away, at the time. Other hallucinations have been even stronger-- I once slammed on my brakes while driving at night because I saw the road ahead of me break open like a gaping maw with two glowing red eyes staring at me, and the sound of an earthquake rattling in my ears.

Even after these experiences, I didn't connect my hearing God's voice with my epilepsy until after I had lost my faith, because the event was so confirmatory of my pre-existent beliefs.

Had you heard of praying in tongues before then? Like, were your parents Christians?

[seer]

Like JimL, I do not let off the deluded and gullible, believing in the illusions, mirages and delusions of the world of Houdini that easily.

But who cares what you believe? Since you were not there?