What Is Man?

[seer]

Well, for starters; you will be far less judgmental.

Secondly, you will be more forgiving of yourself. I've noticed a certain self-debasement in your posts that reflect your fealty to the deity.

Lastly, you will enjoy life more fully. You seem to have a rather negative view of the world, so I'm guessing it distresses you much.

I sleep much better at night knowing that I don't have to struggle to understand everything within a rigidly defined worldview.

NORM

But Norn, I lived without religion pretty much for my first 37 years. So I can compare. I certainly do love life more now, I actually do know that I'm forgiven. And I'm much, much more forgiving of others. And more gracious and giving than I ever was before. And finally I have something I never had as an agnostic - hope. So no Norm - you simply have nothing to offer.

[NormATive]

But Norn, I lived without religion pretty much for my first 37 years. So I can compare. I certainly do love life more now, I actually do know that I'm forgiven. And I'm much, much more forgiving of others. And more gracious and giving than I ever was before. And finally I have something I never had as an agnostic - hope. So no Norm - you simply have nothing to offer.

Perhaps you are really comparing the substance abusing you to the non-substance abusing you (or whatever you meant by "depravity").

In that case, then you are not a good control subject.

I was never an addict, but was not very happy as a Christian. When I converted to Judaism, and then agnosticism, I experienced more joy and happiness in my life. I am much more forgiving of others, more gracious and I have hope for a terrific future that I didn't have before. I no longer have to live a lie.

Plus, I no longer fear death, which is something I did as a Christian. I actually found the idea of immortality a bit frightening.

BTW, your anecdotal evidence (mine too, for that matter) of a better quality of life upon conversion / de-conversion can be told by a Muslim, Buddhist, Pagan, Taoist, etc...

It's not the deity that changes the man - it's the man who changes the man.

NORM

[Doug Shaver]

Etc... into tons of mundane infallible natural observations.

There cannot be an infallible observation without an infallible observer. Why should I think that you or any other human being observes anything infallibly?

Things we literally all assume, whether we realise it or not, and that we can't dispense with without incurring severe problems in trying to understand the world.

Yes, we all assume a great many things because we can make no sense of the world without those assumptions. I am aware of no proof, however, that the necessity of an assumption entails our infallibility in making that assumption.

A contradiction cannot be true. (same, otherwise you could have non-being and being)

A contradiction cannot be true because if it were, then there would be no distinction between truth and falsehood, and in that case the words "true" and "false" would have no meaning.

However people being mistaken about it, says nothing about whether or not we can be sure about it.

Quite so. However, I do not equate "I am sure about X" with "It is impossible for me to be wrong about X."

Ex nihilo nihil fit. (implied by the difference between non-being and being)

I don't see the implication. Can you demonstrate it?

[seer]

It's not the deity that changes the man - it's the man who changes the man.

NORM

No, it is the worldview that changes the man. "As a man thinks so he becomes." And no, I did not fear death as an agnostic. I faced it a number of times. What did bother me was the obvious hopelessness of it all. Nothing I did, good or bad, would matter in the end, even though I had saved lives at the risk of my own. We are all dust in the end. Everything is dust in the end. Even tough I had rejected the faith of my family at the tender age of 12 I always had this unshakable, or rather haunting sense, that there was something more, something waiting behind the scenes, something just around the corner. It was, as it turns out, God. My conversion brought me home, home to a place I had never been before - by His grace. And Norm there is nothing in the world that can draw me back. At 61 I have traveled and seen and read enough to know that you simply have nothing to offer. But thanks for the thought.

[Doug Shaver]

Nothing I did, good or bad, would matter in the end, even though I had saved lives at the risk of my own.

No wonder you weren't happy. Your own life didn't mean squat to you, if all you cared about was whatever reward you could take with you when it was over.

[seer]

No wonder you weren't happy. Your own life didn't mean squat to you, if all you cared about was whatever reward you could take with you when it was over.

Nonsense Doug. No ones life means anything in the end if atheism it correct. That is a fact, it is all finally meaningless. And I said nothing about rewards. I'm speaking of life, love, joy, loved ones and friends existing beyond this vale of tears. That human beings have more inherent worth than a common house fly. That our best moral instincts are not merely the result of random biological changes, that they connect with something eternal and true. That our ideas of justice are not only based on the whims of men.

[Leonhard]

Doug Shaver I think when I wrote that list in a mistake. In a post I read you as asking whether there were any infallible beliefs that I had. However I had mistaken an 'if' for an 'is'.

There cannot be an infallible observation without an infallible observer. Why should I think that you or any other human being observes anything infallibly?

We don't observe everything infallibly, but there are certain things we perceive directly from experience. Something exists for instance, there is being. There is also change and motion, pick up something in your room and drop it. The fact that you might not perfectly understand what you're picking up, doesn't mean that you're mistaken about being or about things changing.

Yes, we all assume a great many things because we can make no sense of the world without those assumptions. I am aware of no proof, however, that the necessity of an assumption entails our infallibility in making that assumption.

Actually that's not what I meant to say. I said that we perceive these things, and they so firmly engrained in our experienced in our world that they're virtually proved every single time you look around the room. You have to teach yourself not to think in these terms, which I think is kinda like denying that you exist.

A contradiction cannot be true because if it were, then there would be no distinction between truth and falsehood, and in that case the words "true" and "false" would have no meaning.

Truth and falsehood can be understood in terms of being and non-being. They're just abstract descriptors. The question is why does the external world behave like this. Why does it make sense to assign truth and falsehood to things? That's because of the distinction between being and non-being. I think its a distinction which is so fundamental and almost too obvious that we tend to glase over it.

Quite so. However, I do not equate "I am sure about X" with "It is impossible for me to be wrong about X."

I agree, knowing something infallible simple means that you'll never encounter truly conflicting evidence, and that what you believe is true. I think the reasons we have justifies that kind of belief.

I don't see the implication. Can you demonstrate it?

I'd love to, but I'm still reading up on somethings I want to get deeper into this before I attempt to justify all of it. I really want to make some threads about essentialist philosophy at some point. Especially because I think it solves a lot of problems that are otherwise in principle impossible to solve.

[Leonhard]

Both are true statements. I think that G-d, if it exists, would WANT us to rebel. This is the lesson of the Shoah.

What do you mean by this? I don't become a better person by lying, cheating, stealing, being lazy, proud, etc... all sorts of not-up-to-par-of-humanity actions. Where those what you thought was rebelling against God, or did you have something else in mind?

[whag]

What do you mean by this? I don't become a better person by lying, cheating, stealing, being lazy, proud, etc... all sorts of not-up-to-par-of-humanity actions. Where those what you thought was rebelling against God, or did you have something else in mind?

Disbelief isn't any of those things. One could be skeptical without being a liar, theif, or lazy.

[Doug Shaver]

No ones life means anything in the end if atheism it correct.

You say so.

That is a fact, it is all finally meaningless.

That is a judgment. You have decided that you don't care for anything that will not last forever.

And I said nothing about rewards.

You have said plenty about benefits accruing to belief and denied to unbelief.






And I said nothing about rewards. I'm speaking of life, love, joy, loved ones and friends existing beyond this vale of tears. That human beings have more inherent worth than a common house fly. That our best moral instincts are not merely the result of random biological changes, that they connect with something eternal and true. That our ideas of justice are not only based on the whims of men.[/QUOTE]

[seer]

You have said plenty about benefits accruing to belief and denied to unbelief.

Again this is not about rewards per se: I'm speaking of life, love, joy, loved ones and friends existing beyond this vale of tears. That human beings have more inherent worth than a common house fly. That our best moral instincts are not merely the result of random biological changes, that they connect with something eternal and true. That our ideas of justice are not only based on the whims of men.

So tell me Doug - what is man?

[Doug Shaver]

So tell me Doug - what is man?

Man is the primate species Homo sapiens.

[Tassman]

Again this is not about rewards per se: I'm speaking of life, love, joy, loved ones and friends existing beyond this vale of tears. That human beings have more inherent worth than a common house fly. That our best moral instincts are not merely the result of random biological changes, that they connect with something eternal and true. That our ideas of justice are not only based on the whims of men.

So tell me Doug - what is man?

"...friends existing beyond this vale of tears", connecting "with something eternal and true..." Can you support theses assertions with something more than personal testimony?

[NormATive]

What did bother me was the obvious hopelessness of it all. Nothing I did, good or bad, would matter in the end, even though I had saved lives at the risk of my own. We are all dust in the end.

This should only bother you if you are only living for yourself.

Try doing good deeds (we call it mitzvah) for others. That's how I am fulfilled. I could die tomorrow and enter oblivion (one can't "feel" oblivion, btw - so; nothing to fear) a happy and fulfilled man. I provided for my family, I made a difference in the world. I left written legacies in the books I've written.

I truly feel sorry for you if you can only find fulfillment in some vague promise of reward by an aloof deity.

NORM

[NormATive]

What do you mean by this? I don't become a better person by lying, cheating, stealing, being lazy, proud, etc... all sorts of not-up-to-par-of-humanity actions. Where those what you thought was rebelling against God, or did you have something else in mind?

If intellectual rebellion means to you "lying, cheating, stealing, being lazy, proud, etc.." then you have more problems than even G-d can deal with!

When our people went through the Shoah at the hands of Hitler and his henchmen, where was this G-d we were diligently praying to and sacrificing to? Nowhere. Aloof. The message from G-d, we discovered, is that we are on our own. We make our own way in this world. G-d may be the Creator and Sustainer of all that is, but G-d does not interfere in human affairs.

That is what is meant by rebellion. It means standing on your own two feet!

NORM