What Is Man?

[seer]

The Christian / Hebrew view is that man is the unique image bearer of God. Loved by God and created for a purpose. With inherent worth and value, sharing characteristics with others in the animal kingdom, but different, more. A creature with hope. If that is not the case, then men are the result of blind and purposeless forces that did not have him in mind. With no more inherent value than a common house fly (A Rat Is a Pig Is a Dog Is a Boy), with no overriding purpose or goal - final hopelessness. Nothingness and nonexistence being the fate of all living creatures.

[KingsGambit]

(Side comment: Very nice new picture.)

[seer]

(Side comment: Very nice new picture.)

My granddaughter on the day she was born, almost a year ago now!

[Doug Shaver]

The Christian / Hebrew view is that man is the unique image bearer of God. Loved by God and created for a purpose. With inherent worth and value, sharing characteristics with others in the animal kingdom, but different, more. A creature with hope. If that is not the case, then men are the result of blind and purposeless forces that did not have him in mind.

And therefore, what?

With no more inherent value than a common house fly

So what? Value is just a human judgment, and whether God exists or not, it is a judgment we cannot avoid making. It would be nice if we could shift the responsibility for that judgment onto some external entity, but there is no necessary connection between what is nice and what is true.

Nothingness and nonexistence being the fate of all living creatures.

It would be nice if that were not so. But as long as I do exist, I will accept responsibility for the choices I make, since I don't have the option of saying, "I'm just following God's orders."









(A Rat Is a Pig Is a Dog Is a Boy), with no overriding purpose or goal - final hopelessness. Nothingness and nonexistence being the fate of all living creatures.[/QUOTE]

[seer]

So what? Value is just a human judgment, and whether God exists or not, it is a judgment we cannot avoid making. It would be nice if we could shift the responsibility for that judgment onto some external entity, but there is no necessary connection between what is nice and what is true.

Yes, and that is the point. Whether humans have value is a completely subjective judgement, and meaningless.

It would be nice if that were not so. But as long as I do exist, I will accept responsibility for the choices I make, since I don't have the option of saying, "I'm just following God's orders."

But why accept responsibility for the choices you make? A lot of people don't, and they would be no more correct or incorrect than you.

[Doug Shaver]

Whether humans have value is a completely subjective judgement, and meaningless.

Do you make no subjective judgments? Or do you make them even though they are meaningless? Or do you make some distinction between subjective judgments that are meaningful and those that are meaningless? If so, how do they differ?

But why accept responsibility for the choices you make? A lot of people don't, and they would be no more correct or incorrect than you.

I see what happens to people who don't accept responsibility. I don't want it to happen to me.

[seer]

Do you make no subjective judgments? Or do you make them even though they are meaningless? Or do you make some distinction between subjective judgments that are meaningful and those that are meaningless? If so, how do they differ?

Not all my judgements are meaningful. How I view and act towards my fellow man, based on divine principles, is. But in your world a Stalin or Mother Teresa come to the same end - dust. One is no more objectively correct with their moral choices than the other.

I see what happens to people who don't accept responsibility. I don't want it to happen to me.

So fear restrains you? But let's be honest some people who don't take responsibility flourish.

[whag]

The Christian / Hebrew view is that man is the unique image bearer of God. Loved by God and created for a purpose. With inherent worth and value, sharing characteristics with others in the animal kingdom, but different, more. A creature with hope. If that is not the case, then men are the result of blind and purposeless forces that did not have him in mind. With no more inherent value than a common house fly (A Rat Is a Pig Is a Dog Is a Boy), with no overriding purpose or goal - final hopelessness. Nothingness and nonexistence being the fate of all living creatures.

What a bleak view this is. It basically admits that only hope and purpose motivate you to keep a cheerful disposition. "Hope" is kind of a nebulous concept. Purpose is so vague, even Christians argue about what it means. For instance, Rick Warren was greatly criticized for espousing human purpose because of the implications of it (e.g., do stillborn babies have a purpose?).

What specifically do hope and purpose mean to you?

[seer]

What a bleak view this is. It basically admits that only hope and purpose motivate you to keep a cheerful disposition. "Hope" is kind of a nebulous concept. Purpose is so vague, even Christians argue about what it means. For instance, Rick Warren was greatly criticized for espousing human purpose because of the implications of it (e.g., do stillborn babies have a purpose?).

What specifically do hope and purpose mean to you?

We were created for a purpose: To love God and our fellow man. We have hope: Hope of a future resurrection and everlasting life, in perfect bliss and joy.

[seasanctuary]

We don't need to be created to love in order to love.

[whag]

We were created for a purpose: To love God and our fellow man.

What about animals? The semblance of love there seems meaningful enough to me without having to stamp it with divine purpose.

We have hope: Hope of a future resurrection and everlasting life, in perfect bliss and joy.

Why couldn't this perfect world have come first? Some Christians hold that the fall was engineered and inevitable. That Jesus was always meant to rule a redesigned, utopic universe.

[seer]

What about animals? The semblance of love there seems meaningful enough to me without having to stamp it with divine purpose.

I have no problem with how you personally find temporal meaning. You have your way, Stalin his, Mao his, etc...

Why couldn't this perfect world have come first? Some Christians hold that the fall was engineered and inevitable. That Jesus was always meant to rule a redesigned, utopic universe.

Not on topic, but that would make aa interesting good new thread.

[seer]

We don't need to be created to love in order to love.

Except in your world love is no more than a chemical reaction, kind of like a good burp!

[whag]

I have no problem with how you personally find temporal meaning. You have your way, Stalin his, Mao his, etc...

Kierkegaard his, those who burned heretics theirs...

Your argument doesn't work when theists disagree about what objective meaning is. You might have a point, but you underscore it with cheap references to psychotic despots.

Not on topic, but that would make aa interesting good new thread.

It couldn't be anymore on topic, since you're talking about purpose and meaning. If the fall was meant to unfold before perfection could be attained, you have a problem presenting a coherent definition of those two terms.

[whag]

Except in your world love is no more than a chemical reaction, kind of like a good burp!

It's funny that you'd react this way if you found out love is just chemistry. I think only those prone to dread and depression would.

Love has a lot to do with chemistry. If God wanted love to transcend chemistry, he wouldn't use chemistry to elicit religious feelings.