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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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What Is Man?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Besides as a Christian I believe all mean bear the image of God and intuitively know that they are not merely the product of blind, non-rational forces.
    As a non-Christian, I disagree. Now what do you think we should do about our disagreement?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
      As a non-Christian, I disagree. Now what do you think we should do about our disagreement?
      Correct, of course you would disagree. Sinners suppress the intuitive knowledge of God in wickedness.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Doug Shaver
        Now what do you think we should do about our disagreement?
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Correct, of course you would disagree. Sinners suppress the intuitive knowledge of God in wickedness.
        Shall I take that as a refusal to answer my question?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
          Shall I take that as a refusal to answer my question?
          I did answer your question. You reject the intuitive knowledge of God because of your sin. Of course you don't think that you are doing that, but that is part of the delusion. Heck, I spend nearly ten years working with the mentally ill, and for the most part they did not believe that they were mentally ill.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            I did answer your question.
            No, you didn't. I asked: "what do you think we should do about our disagreement?" You responded: "Correct, of course you would disagree. Sinners suppress the intuitive knowledge of God in wickedness." That was no answer to the question I asked.

            Now, perhaps you were trying to convey the notion that what we should do about our disagreement is nothing, because I should simply assume that you're right and I'm wrong. Is that what you meant to suggest?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
              No, you didn't. I asked: "what do you think we should do about our disagreement?" You responded: "Correct, of course you would disagree. Sinners suppress the intuitive knowledge of God in wickedness." That was no answer to the question I asked.

              Now, perhaps you were trying to convey the notion that what we should do about our disagreement is nothing, because I should simply assume that you're right and I'm wrong. Is that what you meant to suggest?
              No, implicit in my answer is that there is no possibility of agreement because of your moral and spiritual state. Also implicit in my answer is that I can do nothing to relieve you of this condition. So yes, sadly, until you receive Christ Jesus as your Lord and Savior, nothing can be done.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                No, implicit in my answer is that there is no possibility of agreement because of your moral and spiritual state. Also implicit in my answer is that I can do nothing to relieve you of this condition. So yes, sadly, until you receive Christ Jesus as your Lord and Savior, nothing can be done.
                I would like to add hastily that seer does not represent the full range of, or even the traditional view of how people come to know about God and of human dignity. The traditional view also includes that God can be known to exist, as well as many of his properties through purely rational means.

                Also for the most part of Christianity humans haven't been viewed as so utterly broken that they're not able by using their natural means to approach God, though I believe this is true when it comes to approaching Jesus Christ as a savior.

                That God exists and humans have dignity is not exclusive to Christianity, but is an objective feature of the world which can be understood and discovered through human philosophy. The Greeks found it out by rational means long before Christians came to the scene, who were so surprised that they were considering for a while whether the Greeks had had secret prophets.

                I believe we can do that, whether or not seer has been able to represent the arguments adequately to you, and your own disposition to them is another thing.

                I don't believe you're currently secretly knowing that God exists. In fact I'm 100% sure because unlike seer I used to be an atheist, and I genuinely didn't know whether God existed. There might have been periods of your time when you've had opportunities to discover it, and in those instances you've chosen not to pursue it, however I don't think you're actively dismissing it all the time.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Doug Shaver
                  Is that what you meant to suggest?
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  No,
                  Oh, really?

                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  implicit in my answer is that there is no possibility of agreement because of your moral and spiritual state. Also implicit in my answer is that I can do nothing to relieve you of this condition. So yes, sadly, until you receive Christ Jesus as your Lord and Savior, nothing can be done.
                  I don't see how that differs significantly from my observation that "perhaps you were trying to convey the notion that what we should do about our disagreement is nothing, because I should simply assume that you're right and I'm wrong."

                  So, you think your God has placed on me an obligation to believe what you say just because you say it, and if I can't do that, then I deserve to burn in hell forever. Am I understanding you correctly?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                    So, you think your God has placed on me an obligation to believe what you say just because you say it, and if I can't do that, then I deserve to burn in hell forever. Am I understanding you correctly?
                    Actually I think he's saying that deep down you already believe what he's saying. He's got a bit of a point to it, in that this is possible, but I'm not sure you're doing it actively. I know so because I used to be an atheist until recently.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      I did answer your question. You reject the intuitive knowledge of God because of your sin. Of course you don't think that you are doing that, but that is part of the delusion. Heck, I spend nearly ten years working with the mentally ill, and for the most part they did not believe that they were mentally ill.
                      Is it not possible, then, that it is YOU who are deluded because of your sin?

                      We'll pray for you.

                      NORM
                      When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        I would like to add hastily that seer does not represent the full range of, or even the traditional view of how people come to know about God and of human dignity.
                        I was aware of that. But thank you. There is was no reason you should have known about my background.

                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        I used to be an atheist
                        And I used to be a Christian, first as a fundamentalist, later as a liberal after becoming convinced that scriptural inerrancy was an indefensible dogma.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                          Actually I think he's saying that deep down you already believe what he's saying. He's got a bit of a point to it, in that this is possible, but I'm not sure you're doing it actively.
                          But of course. Who should know what atheists believe better than Christians?

                          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                          I know so because I used to be an atheist until recently.
                          You might have had your subconscious suspicions that Christians were right. But atheists are no more all alike than Christians are.
                          Last edited by Doug Shaver; 05-22-2014, 11:32 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                            Is it not possible, then, that it is YOU who are deluded because of your sin?

                            We'll pray for you.

                            NORM
                            Norm, does your worldview include sin (violation of God's law)? Sin and its horrible effects are a reality in my world, is it in yours? But it is true, in so many ways I am still rebellious to His law, I still sin.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              But it is true, in so many ways I am still rebellious to His law, I still sin.
                              You didn't answer Norm's question. He wanted to know whether it is possible that, because of your sin, you are deluded.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Norm, does your worldview include sin (violation of God's law)? Sin and its horrible effects are a reality in my world, is it in yours? But it is true, in so many ways I am still rebellious to His law, I still sin.
                                No, I don't think the word "sin" is useful in today's society. I prefer to address antisocial behavior as "unlawful behavior." We are accountable to our fellow citizens, not someone's deity.

                                I think that by calling illegal behavior a "sin" we allow violators to escape justice by them claiming some religious conversion. I've seen truly awful people get away with very bad things because they are able to feign spirituality.

                                You should rebel against your deity. It's how you grow as a human being.

                                NORM
                                When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                                Comment

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