Originally posted by Doug Shaver
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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A concept of objective morality is not necessarily a good thing. It can be harmful.
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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At long last...
Originally posted by BoxOriginally posted by TeallauraBias is always subjective but subjectivity isn't necessarily bias.Originally posted by RWYes. I see what you are getting at. .Originally posted by BoxOriginally posted by TeallauraMy question was were you speaking of a preference (bias) or of a formal case? It sounded like the former - mostly because 'absolute objectivity' only makes sense from perspective. An objectively real thing doesn't get any more or less real so 'absolute' would be a strange adverb in that sense. But the next line you're talking about the formal argument which is based on the reality and not the perception.Originally posted by BoxOriginally posted by TeallauraConsistency and morality becomes enforceable. If morality depends solely on the decision of the group then its enforcement is necessarily arbitrary - there is no authority and/or objective reality upon which the standard is based.Originally posted by BoxOriginally posted by TeallauraBob's is just as good as Mary's (this problem is particular to relativism - a subjective system would have similar issues but without relativism's uniform values) so the enforcement comes down to 'might makes right' and not 'Bob's system is better'.
Consistency is fleeting - the group can change tomorrow what it enforces today, making the system arbitrary. Arbitrary justice systems are necessarily unfair.
In an objective system, morality exists independent of the group - e.g. murder is always wrong no matter what the group thinks because it is objectively wrong. Because the standard is objectively real it can be fairly enforced.
Does that help?Last edited by Teallaura; 05-19-2014, 11:50 AM."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostIt would, if I were offering it as evidence for anything.Last edited by seer; 05-19-2014, 01:30 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Doug ShaverFor me to count anything as evidence, it has to be an objective fact.
Originally posted by seerDoes that include the above statement?Originally posted by Doug ShaverIt would, if I were offering it as evidence for anything.Originally posted by seer View PostOk, so you believe some things to be true apart from evidence.
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostThat does not follow from what I said. I said that E implies F and that S is not an instance of E. No matter what I might assert about what E implies, to assert that some S is not an instance of E is not to assert anything about whether all S's require E.
Is this pig Latin?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat is fine, the point was that your definition of "evidence" was completely arbitrary. And therefore your question to me was meaningless.
Hence, what you have repeatedly presented is NOT "evidence" to anyone except yourself. It is your personal testimony regarding beliefs pertaining to the cultural deity of Judeo/Christianity and his alleged messengers and prophets. ALL religions have their devout adherents and sacred writings, why should yours get preferential treatment?
And how do you know that the prophets of old, the New Testament writers, of even Christ Himself were delusional? And Tass, I don't expect you to believe anything:Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostNo, it's logic. But that's probably Greek to you.
To seerLast edited by Tassman; 05-20-2014, 03:59 AM.
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostNo, it's logic. But that's probably Greek to you.
I bow to your superior wisdom Doug, so in plain English, you said: For me to count anything as evidence, it has to be an objective fact.
Do you believe that statement is true? If yes, then you do believe things to be true apart from evidence - correct?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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But Tass, you agree that my experience of having tea the other morning was evidence for that event. But that would not live up to your "dictionary" definition. So you actually agree that "dictionary" definition is arbitrary, or at least it is terribly restrictive. BTW - being in the dictionary does not make it any less arbitrary.
Hence, what you have repeatedly presented is NOT "evidence" to anyone except yourself. It is your personal testimony regarding beliefs pertaining to the cultural deity of Judeo/Christianity and his alleged messengers and prophets. ALL religions have their devout adherents and sacred writings, why should yours get preferential treatment?
Goodness no, the point of the quote was to confirm you in your atheism.
Chortle!Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostBut Tass, you agree that my experience of having tea the other morning was evidence for that event. But that would not live up to your "dictionary" definition. So you actually agree that "dictionary" definition is arbitrary, or at least it is terribly restrictive. BTW - being in the dictionary does not make it any less arbitrary.Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-20-2014, 08:21 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe experience of drinking tea, would be testimony, yes testimony is a form of evidence, but not easily verified unless of course we perform an autopsy soon after the tea has been consumed. The results of the autopsy would be verifiable evidence.Last edited by seer; 05-20-2014, 09:08 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Hello Teallaura,
It was a biggie. No wonder "phew".
It will take me a few days to respond. Rather than doing a point by point, which will simply blow everything out well beyond the posting limit, I'll talk to the notion as per the title (namely that it is not necessarily a good thing, it can be harmful). That is, I'm looking at the practical outcomes of the concept.
By way of doing so, I'll cover several important points you make.
Regards, Roland
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Cool. Take as long as you need."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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