Malevolent Inheritance: Biola Professor on The Fall

[Sparko]

Christian proselytization has no quality control at all, so I wouldn’t put too much stock in it being particularly effective:

Some of that is from Satan, not God. But good thing convincing people is not our job, but the Holy Spirit's. Our job is just to spread the message.

Case in point:

The concept of the rapture is a relatively recent belief in the history of Christianity. It’s exclusive to American evangelical belief, not orthodox Christianity. What church taught you this?

The bible taught me that. I just quoted the verses for you. Paul clearly says that when Jesus returns he will raise the dead believers and those alive will be "caught up" with him in the air.

[whag]

The bible taught me that. I just quoted the verses for you. Paul clearly says that when Jesus returns he will raise the dead believers and those alive will be "caught up" with him in the air.

The Church Fathers interpreted the verse about being "caught up in the air" in various ways, often focusing on a general resurrection and the final judgment rather than a distinct pre-tribulation event. Origen saw the "being caught up" as symbolic, representing the soul's union with Christ at the end of time. His interpretation often leaned towards a more allegorical understanding rather than a literal physical rapture. Cyprian saw the catching up in the air as part of the general resurrection where the righteous would be united with Christ. Augustine saw this as part of the final judgment where the righteous are rewarded and the wicked are judged.

The idea of a pre-tribulation rapture as distinct from Christ's second coming wasn’t a common interpretation in early Christian thought, is my point. The term the rapture was coined and developed by that specific group of believers, not the church fathers.

This is part of the problem with proselytizing. You’re literally telling unbelievers to hold hope in not dying—as if death was something to be feared even with faith in Christ.

[Sparko]

The Church Fathers interpreted the verse about being "caught up in the air" in various ways, often focusing on a general resurrection and the final judgment rather than a distinct pre-tribulation event. Origen saw the "being caught up" as symbolic, representing the soul's union with Christ at the end of time. His interpretation often leaned towards a more allegorical understanding rather than a literal physical rapture. Cyprian saw the catching up in the air as part of the general resurrection where the righteous would be united with Christ. Augustine saw this as part of the final judgment where the righteous are rewarded and the wicked are judged.

The idea of a pre-tribulation rapture as distinct from Christ's second coming wasn’t a common interpretation in early Christian thought, is my point. The term the rapture was coined and developed by that specific group of believers, not the church fathers.

This is part of the problem with proselytizing. You’re literally telling unbelievers to hold hope in not dying—as if death was something to be feared even with faith in Christ.

I never mentioned pre-tribulation or any tribulation. There are various views on the rapture, pretrib, midtrib, postrib, notrib. They all have their arguments. Truth is, nobody knows when it will occur, but the bible does say it will, I posted the verses for you.

And nobody is telling people to hold hope in not dying. It's like you are just trying to shoehorn things into what I say just to argue a strawman. We will all meet Jesus soon enough. If I die tomorrow, I will be with Jesus, if I am alive at the rapture, I will meet Jesus. When you die you will meet Jesus too.

[whag]

I never mentioned pre-tribulation or any tribulation. There are various views on the rapture, pretrib, midtrib, postrib, notrib. They all have their arguments. Truth is, nobody knows when it will occur, but the bible does say it will, I posted the verses for you.

Yes, and those verses didn’t indicate to the church fathers what the American fundamentalist church taught you. The Bible also says the stars will from from Heaven, but you don’t take that literally.

Jesus doesn’t come to take you to another physical place, which is what the rapture implies. Spatially, Heaven is here in another dimension, not somewhere else in the sky beyond the clouds.

And nobody is telling people to hold hope in not dying. It's like you are just trying to shoehorn things into what I say just to argue a strawman. We will all meet Jesus soon enough. If I die tomorrow, I will be with Jesus, if I am alive at the rapture, I will meet Jesus. When you die you will meet Jesus too.

That’s precisely why you shouldn’t be telling unbelievers to hold hope in a specific literal event attributed only to 19th century American evangelical belief and popularized by conmen like Hal Lindsay, Jack Van Impe, and thousands of other bad televangelists.

[tabibito]

Incorrect. If Satan is real, he has empirical, ontological knowledge of God and the roles each member of the trinity play. In no way, shape, or form does that equate to human faith or belief at all.

Actually it does, or the founding apostles could not have believed in him: believing or not believing in someone is somewhat more profound than simply believing (or not) that they exist.
The person saying, "I believe in (say) Trump" would not be saying that he believes Trump exists. The same applies for any other given individual.

[Sparko]

Yes, and those verses didn’t indicate to the church fathers what the American fundamentalist church taught you. The Bible also says the stars will from from Heaven, but you don’t take that literally.

Jesus doesn’t come to take you to another physical place, which is what the rapture implies. Spatially, Heaven is here in another dimension, not somewhere else in the sky beyond the clouds.

It doesn't say they will be taken to heaven, but to meet Jesus in the air. In other words, Jesus has come from heaven and he is gathering his people, dead and alive.

That’s precisely why you shouldn’t be telling unbelievers to hold hope in a specific literal event attributed only to 19th century American evangelical belief and popularized by conmen like Hal Lindsay, Jack Van Impe, and thousands of other bad televangelists.

Not following you. I shouldn't share the gospel with others because why? The rapture is not part of "the gospel" - the gospel is explaining why Jesus came, what he did, and how we can be saved from hell. The end times are not of any concern to that. It comes later. For the vast majority of people the point where they meet Jesus is when they die. The rapture could happen today or a thousand years from now. Nobody knows but God.

[Sparko]

Actually it does, or the founding apostles could not have believed in him: believing or not believing in someone is somewhat more profound than simply believing (or not) that they exist.
The person saying, "I believe in (say) Trump" would not be saying that he believes Trump exists. The same applies for any other given individual.

Yup. Faith is to have trust in someone or something.

[tabibito]

Yup. Faith is to have trust in someone or something.

In many cases, a person's faith is a matter of being trustworthy - as in a faithful spouse. That part of the definition of faith seems to have disappeared in the teachings of the reformers, but its presence in the faith of believers of the Biblical record is unmistakable. Accepting Christ involves believing him - believing what he taught is true, including the requirement that "conduct unbecoming" of a Christian be eschewed.

[whag]

Actually it does, or the founding apostles could not have believed in him: believing or not believing in someone is somewhat more profound than simply believing (or not) that they exist.
The person saying, "I believe in (say) Trump" would not be saying that he believes Trump exists. The same applies for any other given individual.

Go back to Sparko’s statement: “Satan believes Jesus is the Son of God.” You’re conflating Satan’s belief that “Jesus is the son of God” with a Trumper’s belief in Trump’s mission and confidence in his plan of action. Obviously, those aren’t the same types of belief, since Satan doesn’t believe in Jesus’ mission and plan of action. Sparko meant that Satan simply had ontological knowledge of God and his triunity, having lived with the dude for eons.

Interestingly, that suggests a much deeper problem with the story, since Satan’s unique knowledge of God would come with the understanding that usurpation wasn’t only folly but infinitely impossible. That’d be the major clue the story is myth since the entities behave like men with human feelings and desires.

[tabibito]

Go back to Sparko’s statement: “Satan believes Jesus is the Son of God.”

I see what you mean. Satan would have had absolute knowledge about whether the claim was true, with the claim being, in strictest terms, a matter of belief for humans.

[whag]

Yup. Faith is to have trust in someone or something.

Exactly, so when James says

The devils also believe — and tremble. ASV. Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.

he means the demons merely have confirmation of God’s existence and infinite power. That’s pure knowledge and not belief. I don’t “believe” my mom exists, rather I know she exists in the same way Satan and the demons know God exists and possesses infinite power.

One wonders how they thought an insurrection was possible in that context, but that’s where extreme faith comes in.

[whag]

I see what you mean. Satan would have had absolute knowledge about whether the claim was true, with the claim being, in strictest terms, a matter of belief for humans.

Thank you. Yes, that’s all I meant.

[Sparko]

Exactly, so when James says

The devils also believe — and tremble. ASV. Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.

he means the demons merely have confirmation of God’s existence and infinite power. That’s pure knowledge and not belief. I don’t “believe” my mom exists, rather I know she exists in the same way Satan and the demons know God exists and possesses infinite power.

One wonders how they thought an insurrection was possible in that context, but that’s where extreme faith comes in.

I don't think it was some sort of "insurrection" per se. The bible doesn't give a lot of detail. Basically Satan was proud and jealous and hated God. When you hate someone you don't want to follow him, even if you know it is futile. He sinned along with other angles and was cast out.

[whag]

It doesn't say they will be taken to heaven, but to meet Jesus in the air. In other words, Jesus has come from heaven and he is gathering his people, dead and alive.



Not following you. I shouldn't share the gospel with others because why? The rapture is not part of "the gospel" - the gospel is explaining why Jesus came, what he did, and how we can be saved from hell. The end times are not of any concern to that. It comes later. For the vast majority of people the point where they meet Jesus is when they die. The rapture could happen today or a thousand years from now. Nobody knows but God.

“And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience”

Do you take that to mean Satan conducts his business in the atmosphere? That’s what I mean by you’re taking Paul too literally. He’s not saying you’ll be rocketed into the sky.

[whag]

I don't think it was some sort of "insurrection" per se. The bible doesn't give a lot of detail. Basically Satan was proud and jealous and hated God. When you hate someone you don't want to follow him, even if you know it is futile. He sinned along with other angles and was cast out.

John refers to a war in Heaven, so I’m not sure what you’re getting at:

⁷ Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. ⁸ But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. ⁹ The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

What would the purpose of a war be if not with the objective to win?