Redemption: Being saved or born again

[Cow Poke]

In case it had slipped your mind.



[Scorn] Or is that only applicable to you?

No, ma'am, my apologies -- you are absolutely correct.... meddle on!

[JimL]

Here's where I like to clarify - our "relationship" is not damaged, but our "fellowship" is. Just like when I "sin" against my parents, they are still my parents and I am still their kid - that "relationship" doesn't change.
What does change (and I know that's what you're intending) is our "fellowship". That's what gets broken and needs to be restored.

In my opinion, anyway.

Ok then. Now that Sparko better explained you. So after you die, you know, and resurrect, why does that need for repentance no longer exist. Are you no longer able to sin?
I think the idea is that God gives you a new glorified body, and mind I guess, so that you are no longer human and imperfect like he made you the first go round? Therefore there's nothing ever to repent for?

[JimL]

He probably needs to start with one with lots of pictures, and few multi-syllable words.

my first Bible.png
I'll even purchase it for him and have it delivered to his door, like I did for Punkinhead (though hers was a "big girl" version).

Darn, where is that CivilDiscourse hiding out now?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Ok then. Now that Sparko better explained you. So after you die, you know, and resurrect, why does that need for repentance no longer exist. Are you no longer able to sin?
I think the idea is that God gives you a new glorified body, and mind I guess, so that you are no longer human and imperfect like he made you the first go round? Therefore there's nothing ever to repent for?

I wonder where the Last Judgement fits in to it all ? If the Christian goes straight to heaven after death and everyone else straight to hell, why does there have to be a final adjudication?

It is all somewhat Egyptian.

[Cow Poke]

Ok then. Now that Sparko better explained you. So after you die, you know, and resurrect, why does that need for repentance no longer exist. Are you no longer able to sin?
I think the idea is that God gives you a new glorified body, and mind I guess, so that you are no longer human and imperfect like he made you the first go round? Therefore there's nothing ever to repent for?

Jim, if I thought you were even half serious about wanting to learn about Christianity, I'd have all the patience in the world. All you want to do is mock, and you're even mocking the Salvation your mother wished for you. That's really sad.

[Diogenes]

I wonder where the Last Judgement fits in to it all ? If the Christian goes straight to heaven after death and everyone else straight to hell, why does there have to be a final adjudication?

It is all somewhat Egyptian.

Tomatoes and apples are both fruits. The same level of similarity exists between Christian and Egyptian afterlife beliefs.

[Sparko]

Ok then. Now that Sparko better explained you. So after you die, you know, and resurrect, why does that need for repentance no longer exist. Are you no longer able to sin?
I think the idea is that God gives you a new glorified body, and mind I guess, so that you are no longer human and imperfect like he made you the first go round? Therefore there's nothing ever to repent for?

JimL that's actually an insightful question. Why won't we sin after we are resurrected? After all Adam and Eve were perfect and eternal yet they sinned, right?

The bible never says directly how it works, but it does say we will not sin. I asked my pastor that once ("Why won't we sin after we are resurrected?"). He said that there are two theories that he has: 1. By choosing Christ we are voluntarily giving up the ability to sin. We are asking him to take away that option. So in effect we will not have free will to sin, like Adam and Eve did. and

2. That because we actually DID sin and lived a life of sinning and the consequences that we will see how bad sin is and will never choose to sin again.

Summary:
My pastor told me that Adam and Eve had the free will to sin or not to sin. They chose sin.
We are now corrupted and we don't have free will to NOT to sin. We will sin.

After the resurrection we will

Theory 1> No longer have the ability to sin, or

Theory 2> When we are resurrected we will be like Adam and Eve and have the ability to choose not to sin once again. And because we have sinned and know what it does, we will choose to not to sin for eternity. And Satan will be locked in hell so there will be no outside influencer to try to get us to sin like he did with Adam and Eve.

[Sparko]

I wonder where the Last Judgement fits in to it all ? If the Christian goes straight to heaven after death and everyone else straight to hell, why does there have to be a final adjudication?

It is all somewhat Egyptian.

Think of the difference between Jail and Prison. When you die you won't be going directly to hell, We go to temporary holding locations until our Trial where our final destination is determined. We live as spirits until Judgement day when we are resurrected and then judged.
Other Christians believe we just remain dead until the resurrection. No intermediate spirit mode.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Tomatoes and apples are both fruits. The same level of similarity exists between Christian and Egyptian afterlife beliefs.

I consider the similarities in imagery and to some extent belief to be remarkably striking.

[JimL]

I wonder where the Last Judgement fits in to it all ? If the Christian goes straight to heaven after death and everyone else straight to hell, why does there have to be a final adjudication?

It is all somewhat Egyptian.

Yes, it never made a whole lot of sense. My question was always, if when you die, according to christians, God gives you a new and glorified body (and soul I guess) so that you will no longer sin in heaven, then why didn't he do that in the first place? And if the only sin that ultimately matters is not believing in Jesus as God and savior then why doesn't he make that perfectly clear to everyone which being god I'm sure he could have done rather than leaving it up to people, some who have never even heard of him, let's say Buddha, to make up their own minds as if it's a sin just to be wrong in what you believe to be true.

[Sparko]

Yes, it never made a whole lot of sense. My question was always, if when you die, according to christians, God gives you a new and glorified body (and soul I guess) so that you will no longer sin in heaven, then why didn't he do that in the first place? And if the only sin that ultimately matters is not believing in Jesus as God and savior then why doesn't he make that perfectly clear to everyone which being god I'm sure he could have done rather than leaving it up to people, some who have never even heard of him, let's say Buddha, to make up their own minds as if it's a sin just to be wrong in what you believe to be true.

Perhaps having experienced sin is the only way we won't sin in the afterlife. So we can understand how evil sin is. See my last answer to you.

And Jesus does make it perfectly clear to everyone that he is the only way to be saved. The problem is not everyone believes him. Free will and all that.

Source: https://www.livingchristian.org/bible-verses-blogs/15-bible-verses-about-jesus-being-the-only-way

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, - 1 Timothy 2:5

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. - John 3:16

I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. - John 10:9

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. - John 3:36

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 6:23

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. - 1 John 5:20

© Copyright Original Source

[Diogenes]

I consider the similarities in imagery and to some extent belief to be remarkably striking.

The Aztecs and Egyptians built pyramids. The are commonalities all over the globe. As I said, tomatoes and apples are both fruits.

[Sparko]

I consider the similarities in imagery and to some extent belief to be remarkably striking.

All afterlife beliefs will have some similar touch points. That is to be expected. Especially if the Bible is correct. Everyone started with the same knowledge of God and redemption in the afterlife, but as people spread out knowledge was diluted and changed and became the various other religions and beliefs we find all over the world. But part of your confusion is not knowing what the Christian afterlife beliefs are and mixing up what you think they are with Egyptian afterlife.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Yes, it never made a whole lot of sense. My question was always, if when you die, according to christians, God gives you a new and glorified body (and soul I guess) so that you will no longer sin in heaven, then why didn't he do that in the first place? And if the only sin that ultimately matters is not believing in Jesus as God and savior then why doesn't he make that perfectly clear to everyone which being god I'm sure he could have done rather than leaving it up to people, some who have never even heard of him, let's say Buddha, to make up their own minds as if it's a sin just to be wrong in what you believe to be true.

Egypt is certainly where we find the earliest evidence of a post-mortem judgement and for the Egyptian who had been correctly buried with all the appropriate mortuary rituals carried out, the belief existed that the deceased would then become an akh which translates approximately as a "glorified being", and in I Corinthians 15 Paul writes about the resurrected body being "raised in glory".

We also need to bear in mind that in the first century CE the cult of Osiris was still an extant religion and initiates to those mysteries believed that as Osiris had died and risen back to life so by their own ritual assimilation they too could obtain immortal life. In Christianity Paul believed it was through baptism that the Christian was ritually assimilated to Christ in his death in order to become one with him in his resurrection, as he writes in Romans chapter six:

Do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? ⁴ Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

Comparative religion is a fascinating subject.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

All afterlife beliefs will have some similar touch points. That is to be expected. Especially if the Bible is correct. Everyone started with the same knowledge of God and redemption in the afterlife, but as people spread out knowledge was diluted and changed and became the various other religions and beliefs we find all over the world. .

[Adopting tone of parent to reassure child] Yes of course they did. It stands to reason.