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Redemption: Being saved or born again

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  • Redemption: Being saved or born again

    This thread is prompted by a remark made by CP in a thread on the Civics board where in a reply to Sam he made this last comment

    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Or, what, you're gonna threaten me with Hell?



    That made me wonder whether if among some Christians the belief that one is saved/born again removes any belief in the possibility of receiving eternal punishment.

    In other words, is being saved/born again all that is required to believe that an individual will get to heaven?
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

  • #2
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    This thread is prompted by a remark made by CP in a thread on the Civics board where in a reply to Sam he made this last comment




    That made me wonder whether if among some Christians the belief that one is saved/born again removes any belief in the possibility of receiving eternal punishment.

    In other words, is being saved/born again all that is required to believe that an individual will get to heaven?
    Put very simply, yes. Some Christians believe that if you sin after becoming "saved", you lose your salvation until and unless you repent. I grew up in a denomination that taught that. I had no assurance of my salvation and lived in fear of losing it until well into my 20’s, when I started delving into scripture. God's word is clear that His children can have assurance that "nothing can pluck them out of His hand".

    Christianity is the only "religion" that is not works-based. I can do nothing to gain salvation, and I can do nothing to lose it. All that is required of anyone is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and repent of their sin. The Holy Spirit does the rest.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

    Comment


    • #3
      For those who speak honestly of Christ being their lord are assured of salvation for as long as Christ remains their lord.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        This thread is prompted by a remark made by CP in a thread on the Civics board where in a reply to Sam he made this last comment

        It seems more that, unsurprisingly, Sam is questioning CP's salvation.

        That made me wonder whether if among some Christians the belief that one is saved/born again removes any belief in the possibility of receiving eternal punishment.

        In other words, is being saved/born again all that is required to believe that an individual will get to heaven?
        More evidence you've yet to read the Bible. .

        In short yes as salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast.

        While faith without works is dead much like a dead tree bears no fruit, salvation is by grace not merit. The thief on the cross had no need for works or even baptism as his faith was sufficient.
        Last edited by Diogenes; 02-04-2024, 10:07 AM.
        P1) If , then I win.

        P2)

        C) I win.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mossrose View Post

          Put very simply, yes. Some Christians believe that if you sin after becoming "saved", you lose your salvation until and unless you repent. I grew up in a denomination that taught that. I had no assurance of my salvation and lived in fear of losing it until well into my 20’s, when I started delving into scripture. God's word is clear that His children can have assurance that "nothing can pluck them out of His hand".

          Christianity is the only "religion" that is not works-based. I can do nothing to gain salvation, and I can do nothing to lose it. All that is required of anyone is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and repent of their sin. The Holy Spirit does the rest.
          If I have understood you correctly then you believe you are saved and even if you sin you will still be saved as long as you repent of that sin.

          In that scenario what is to prevent the individual repeatedly sinning as long as each time they repent?
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Diogenes View Post


            It seems more, unsurprisingly, that Sam is questioning CP's salvation.



            More evidence you've yet to read the Bible. .

            In short yes as salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast.

            While faith without works is dead much like a dead tree bears no fruit, salvation is by grace not merit. The thief on the cross had no need for works or even baptism as his faith was sufficient.
            It has nothing to do with my reading "the Bible ", whichever one you have in mind.

            It is to do with a comment made by a practising believer.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              It has nothing to do with my reading "the Bible ", whichever one you have in mind.
              For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

              The Orthodox Tewahedo canon, obviously Patricia.




              It is to do with a comment made by a practising believer.
              If it has nothing to do with the Bible, you're just attempting to cause strife. Thank you for your disclosure.
              P1) If , then I win.

              P2)

              C) I win.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

                The Orthodox Tewahedo canon, obviously Patricia.






                If it has nothing to do with the Bible, you're just attempting to cause strife. Thank you for your disclosure.
                mossrose made an interesting comment:

                when I started delving into scripture. God's word is clear that His children can have assurance that "nothing can pluck them out of His hand".


                That brings to mind James Hogg's 1824 novel The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                  If I have understood you correctly then you believe you are saved and even if you sin you will still be saved as long as you repent of that sin.

                  In that scenario what is to prevent the individual repeatedly sinning as long as each time they repent?
                  Because scripture is also clear that "once saved always saved" does not give us license to sin. If a person thinks that they can continue to sin then they have a very poor understanding of scripture.


                  Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                    Because scripture is also clear that "once saved always saved" does not give us license to sin. If a person thinks that they can continue to sin then they have a very poor understanding of scripture.
                    Yet surely no one believes that once they have been saved/born again they never do something wrong i.e. commit a sin?
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      Yet surely no one believes that once they have been saved/born again they never do something wrong i.e. commit a sin?
                      I never said that. I know I still have the propensity to sin, and certainly do sin, in thought, word, or deed. As do all believers. As I said, if I could lose my salvation, I would.

                      Did you start this thread with a sincere question, or are you trying to somehow trip us up?


                      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                        I never said that. I know I still have the propensity to sin, and certainly do sin, in thought, word, or deed. As do all believers. As I said, if I could lose my salvation, I would.

                        Did you start this thread with a sincere question, or are you trying to somehow trip us up?
                        Of course, the Biblical authors had no idea what they were talking about when they claimed that various people were blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord. Luke 1:6 is not the only place where similar claims can be found.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                          I never said that. I know I still have the propensity to sin, and certainly do sin, in thought, word, or deed. As do all believers. As I said, if I could lose my salvation, I would.

                          Did you start this thread with a sincere question, or are you trying to somehow trip us up?
                          I believe the question is: If a person is persistently in a state of sin or unrepentance for failing to adhere to Christ's teachings, what should give that person confidence in their salvation? Given the Gospel warnings about people who thought themselves righteous and justified by God actually bearing bad fruit, how does the concept of assured salvation even biblically work?

                          Ananias and Saphira, for example, were counted among the first believers of Christ yet, for their act of deceit, they were apparently killed on the spot. Was that their sole punishment? Were they or will they be (depending on one's eschatology) welcomed into Heaven? Or was their belief and profession of faith insufficient to assure their salvation?

                          -Sam
                          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            This thread is prompted by a remark made by CP in a thread on the Civics board where in a reply to Sam he made this last comment




                            That made me wonder whether if among some Christians the belief that one is saved/born again removes any belief in the possibility of receiving eternal punishment.

                            In other words, is being saved/born again all that is required to believe that an individual will get to heaven?
                            Do these verses answer your question?

                            This is the message we heard from Jesus[c] and now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all. So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness; we are not practicing the truth. But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

                            If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts. 1 John 1 :5-10.

                            Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.


                            Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life[m] is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers[n] does not belong to God. 1 John 3:4-10.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              mossrose made an interesting comment:

                              when I started delving into scripture. God's word is clear that His children can have assurance that "nothing can pluck them out of His hand".


                              That brings to mind James Hogg's 1824 novel The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner.
                              So instead of addressing what I said, you're addressing what mossross said and also diverting to a novel. Do you have anything original and relevant to add? Do you ever?
                              P1) If , then I win.

                              P2)

                              C) I win.

                              Comment

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