Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Redemption: Being saved or born again
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Here's where I like to clarify - our "relationship" is not damaged, but our "fellowship" is. Just like when I "sin" against my parents, they are still my parents and I am still their kid - that "relationship" doesn't change.
What does change (and I know that's what you're intending) is our "fellowship". That's what gets broken and needs to be restored.
In my opinion, anyway.
I think the idea is that God gives you a new glorified body, and mind I guess, so that you are no longer human and imperfect like he made you the first go round? Therefore there's nothing ever to repent for?
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
He probably needs to start with one with lots of pictures, and few multi-syllable words.
my first Bible.png
I'll even purchase it for him and have it delivered to his door, like I did for Punkinhead (though hers was a "big girl" version).
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Originally posted by JimL View Post
Ok then. Now that Sparko better explained you. So after you die, you know, and resurrect, why does that need for repentance no longer exist. Are you no longer able to sin?
I think the idea is that God gives you a new glorified body, and mind I guess, so that you are no longer human and imperfect like he made you the first go round? Therefore there's nothing ever to repent for?
It is all somewhat Egyptian.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by JimL View Post
Ok then. Now that Sparko better explained you. So after you die, you know, and resurrect, why does that need for repentance no longer exist. Are you no longer able to sin?
I think the idea is that God gives you a new glorified body, and mind I guess, so that you are no longer human and imperfect like he made you the first go round? Therefore there's nothing ever to repent for?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
I wonder where the Last Judgement fits in to it all ? If the Christian goes straight to heaven after death and everyone else straight to hell, why does there have to be a final adjudication?
It is all somewhat Egyptian.
P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by JimL View Post
Ok then. Now that Sparko better explained you. So after you die, you know, and resurrect, why does that need for repentance no longer exist. Are you no longer able to sin?
I think the idea is that God gives you a new glorified body, and mind I guess, so that you are no longer human and imperfect like he made you the first go round? Therefore there's nothing ever to repent for?
JimL that's actually an insightful question. Why won't we sin after we are resurrected? After all Adam and Eve were perfect and eternal yet they sinned, right?
The bible never says directly how it works, but it does say we will not sin. I asked my pastor that once ("Why won't we sin after we are resurrected?"). He said that there are two theories that he has: 1. By choosing Christ we are voluntarily giving up the ability to sin. We are asking him to take away that option. So in effect we will not have free will to sin, like Adam and Eve did. and
2. That because we actually DID sin and lived a life of sinning and the consequences that we will see how bad sin is and will never choose to sin again.
Summary:
My pastor told me that Adam and Eve had the free will to sin or not to sin. They chose sin.
We are now corrupted and we don't have free will to NOT to sin. We will sin.
After the resurrection we will
Theory 1> No longer have the ability to sin, or
Theory 2> When we are resurrected we will be like Adam and Eve and have the ability to choose not to sin once again. And because we have sinned and know what it does, we will choose to not to sin for eternity. And Satan will be locked in hell so there will be no outside influencer to try to get us to sin like he did with Adam and Eve.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
I wonder where the Last Judgement fits in to it all ? If the Christian goes straight to heaven after death and everyone else straight to hell, why does there have to be a final adjudication?
It is all somewhat Egyptian.
Other Christians believe we just remain dead until the resurrection. No intermediate spirit mode.
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Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
Tomatoes and apples are both fruits. The same level of similarity exists between Christian and Egyptian afterlife beliefs.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
I wonder where the Last Judgement fits in to it all ? If the Christian goes straight to heaven after death and everyone else straight to hell, why does there have to be a final adjudication?
It is all somewhat Egyptian.
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Originally posted by JimL View Post
Yes, it never made a whole lot of sense. My question was always, if when you die, according to christians, God gives you a new and glorified body (and soul I guess) so that you will no longer sin in heaven, then why didn't he do that in the first place? And if the only sin that ultimately matters is not believing in Jesus as God and savior then why doesn't he make that perfectly clear to everyone which being god I'm sure he could have done rather than leaving it up to people, some who have never even heard of him, let's say Buddha, to make up their own minds as if it's a sin just to be wrong in what you believe to be true.
And Jesus does make it perfectly clear to everyone that he is the only way to be saved. The problem is not everyone believes him. Free will and all that.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
I consider the similarities in imagery and to some extent belief to be remarkably striking.P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
I consider the similarities in imagery and to some extent belief to be remarkably striking.
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Originally posted by JimL View Post
Yes, it never made a whole lot of sense. My question was always, if when you die, according to christians, God gives you a new and glorified body (and soul I guess) so that you will no longer sin in heaven, then why didn't he do that in the first place? And if the only sin that ultimately matters is not believing in Jesus as God and savior then why doesn't he make that perfectly clear to everyone which being god I'm sure he could have done rather than leaving it up to people, some who have never even heard of him, let's say Buddha, to make up their own minds as if it's a sin just to be wrong in what you believe to be true.
We also need to bear in mind that in the first century CE the cult of Osiris was still an extant religion and initiates to those mysteries believed that as Osiris had died and risen back to life so by their own ritual assimilation they too could obtain immortal life. In Christianity Paul believed it was through baptism that the Christian was ritually assimilated to Christ in his death in order to become one with him in his resurrection, as he writes in Romans chapter six:
Do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
Comparative religion is a fascinating subject.Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 05-14-2024, 09:16 AM."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
All afterlife beliefs will have some similar touch points. That is to be expected. Especially if the Bible is correct. Everyone started with the same knowledge of God and redemption in the afterlife, but as people spread out knowledge was diluted and changed and became the various other religions and beliefs we find all over the world. ."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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