Mark's gospel: claimed deficiencies

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

An estimate might cite a range as in the article, or a margin of error (30AD +- 10 years), with the imprecision being restricted to that range.



Tentative estimates specify tentative - not necessarily using the word itself.



Something to double check. Thank you.

You need precise dating evidence from both excavations.

[tabibito]

Arguments are usually presented in the opening paragraphs and followed by a discussion and then a conclusion. Otherwise it all ends up as a hopeless muddle.

True enough. I'm told that more organised people can write introductions first, but I can't do it. Unfortunately, I never know in advance where research is going to take me, so introductions are usually written at the same time as conclusions.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

True enough. I'm told that more organised people can write introductions first, but I can't do it. Unfortunately, I never know in advance where research is going to take me, so introductions are usually written at the same time as conclusions.

The normal procedure is to develop a hypothesis, undertake research and collect evidence in support of that hypothesis and then write it up.

[rogue06]

The normal procedure is to develop a hypothesis, undertake research and collect evidence in support of that hypothesis and then write it up.

Some folks call what you describe as cherry picking of data.

[tabibito]

The normal procedure is to develop a hypothesis, undertake research and collect evidence in support of that hypothesis and then write it up.

That risks tainting the results.

[tabibito]

Current State of Play for Magdala Synagogues

1 Synagogue dated to pre 70CE - "While the temple was still standing."
1 Synagogue dated to 50 to 100CE - Magdala was destroyed in 67CE and reoccupied shortly afterward: with the estimated dates spanning both sides of those events, it is one of the weirdest ranges that I have ever encountered.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

That risks tainting the results.

If the evidence is not there the hypothesis falls.

[tabibito]

If the evidence is not there the hypothesis falls.

In the realms of hard science, yes. In other realms, not so much. And when it comes to Christian studies, the basis for this hypothesis (in other realms ...) is in the number of different interpretations that get assigned to the same text.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Current State of Play for Magdala Synagogues

1 Synagogue dated to pre 70CE - "While the temple was still standing."
1 Synagogue dated to 50 to 100CE - Magdala was destroyed in 67CE and reoccupied shortly afterward: with the estimated dates spanning both sides of those events, it is one of the weirdest ranges that I have ever encountered.

In the opening to chapter 2 of her work Ancient Synagogues - Archaeology and Art: New Discoveries and Current Research, [2013, Brill] Rachel Hachlili notes:

Archaeological evidence for the existence of synagogues in the Second Temple period is inconclusive. The public structures discovered at the fortresses of Masada, Herodium, and Gamla were remodelled to local assembly halls during the years of revolt against Rome, when it was extremely difficult for the congregation to travel to Jerusalem to participate in the Temple worship. Other remains are the basalt structure at Capernaum, which is in debate, and another synagogue, now lost, reported at Korazim. The recently uncovered public structures at Hasmonean Jericho and in several Jewish villages - Horvat 'Ethri, Migdal I, Modi'in, and Qiryat Sefer, are also deemed to be synagogues of this period. However, remains of such structures in the period are rare. They may have been covered or destroyed by later structures. Moreover, they lack distinctive architectural features and symbols making classification difficult.

These structures built while the Second Temple stood in Jerusalem are considered to be synagogues on the basis of circumstantial evidence. They share some similarities in their architectural plan and therefore, in function, even though no actual proof has been uncovered [Hachlili 1988: 84-86; 1997:40-43]. The structures might have had a focal point in the centre of the hall: however they lack the most important feature of the later synagogue, the Torah shrine.

Hachlili considers Migdal I [dating from 50 BCE - 100 CE] to be generally accepted as a synagogue but doubts remain as to whether Migdal II [Spring House dating from 1st century CE] was a synagogue.

It therefore appears that there was nothing untoward about what Price wrote in his 2006 work concerning "the depiction of synagogues scattered throughout Galilee when in fact they seem to have been largely confined to Judaea before CE 70."

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

In the realms of hard science, yes. In other realms, not so much. And when it comes to Christian studies, the basis for this hypothesis (in other realms ...) is in the number of different interpretations that get assigned to the same text.

If the source evidence is not there or challenges the hypothesis the hypothesis needs to be reconsidered or rejected.

Concerning the different interpretations of ancient Christian texts we unfortunately have no original MSS for any of these texts.

All that we have are the copies that have survived and come down to us and we know that among those copies of the same text there is not always agreement.

[tabibito]

In the opening to chapter 2 of her work Ancient Synagogues - Archaeology and Art: New Discoveries and Current Research, [2013, Brill] Rachel Hachlili notes:

Archaeological evidence for the existence of synagogues in the Second Temple period is inconclusive. The public structures discovered at the fortresses of Masada, Herodium, and Gamla were remodelled to local assembly halls during the years of revolt against Rome, when it was extremely difficult for the congregation to travel to Jerusalem to participate in the Temple worship. Other remains are the basalt structure at Capernaum, which is in debate, and another synagogue, now lost, reported at Korazim. The recently uncovered public structures at Hasmonean Jericho and in several Jewish villages - Horvat 'Ethri, Migdal I, Modi'in, and Qiryat Sefer, are also deemed to be synagogues of this period. However, remains of such structures in the period are rare. They may have been covered or destroyed by later structures. Moreover, they lack distinctive architectural features and symbols making classification difficult.

These structures built while the Second Temple stood in Jerusalem are considered to be synagogues on the basis of circumstantial evidence. They share some similarities in their architectural plan and therefore, in function, even though no actual proof has been uncovered [Hachlili 1988: 84-86; 1997:40-43]. The structures might have had a focal point in the centre of the hall: however they lack the most important feature of the later synagogue, the Torah shrine.

Hachlili considers Migdal I [dating from 50 BCE - 100 CE] to be generally accepted as a synagogue but doubts remain as to whether Migdal II [Spring House dating from 1st century CE] was a synagogue.

It therefore appears that there was nothing untoward about what Price wrote in his 2006 work concerning "the depiction of synagogues scattered throughout Galilee when in fact they seem to have been largely confined to Judaea before CE 70."

Tis an interesting book. I'll have to dawdle off the the library sometime in the next few days to see the further detail. The critical point is "remodelled" to serve as public structures (from what, and when?).

Throughout those parts of chapter 2 available through google books, Hachlili accepts the identification of the relevant structures as synagogues. Further information to hand - synagogues existed in Egypt from the third century BCE, (confirmed Hachlili: page 14 (d)) about 100 years before Pharisees were thought of - the implication that Pharisees were integral to the establishment and function of synagogues doesn't seem tenable (confirmed Hachlili: page 18). Also, as noted previously, the synagogue could exist without any dedicated meeting hall, (confirmed: page 10.)

[tabibito]

If the source evidence is not there or challenges the hypothesis the hypothesis needs to be reconsidered or rejected.

Concerning the different interpretations of ancient Christian texts we unfortunately have no original MSS for any of these texts.

All that we have are the copies that have survived and come down to us and we know that among those copies of the same text there is not always agreement.

I was remiss in saying "the same text," it should have been "self-same text," or "identical text."

[rogue06]

If the evidence is not there the hypothesis falls.

And if there is evidence that refutes it then it also fails. But if all you are doing is "collect[ing] evidence in support of that hypothesis" you would likely skip over contradicting evidence. Hence you are advocating the cherry picking of data.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Tis an interesting book. I'll have to dawdle off the the library sometime in the next few days to see the further detail. The critical point is "remodelled" to serve as public structures (from what, and when?).

Throughout those parts of chapter 2 available through google books, Hachlili accepts the identification of the relevant structures as synagogues. Further information to hand - synagogues existed in Egypt from the third century BCE, (confirmed Hachlili: page 14 (d)) about 100 years before Pharisees were thought of - the implication that Pharisees were integral to the establishment and function of synagogues doesn't seem tenable (confirmed Hachlili: page 18). Also, as noted previously, the synagogue could exist without any dedicated meeting hall, (confirmed: page 10.)

It is a very good read. The supplement on Qazion in Upper Galilee with its [lost but later discovered] inscription to Septimius Severus where she describes the two short excavations and surveys she and a colleague undertook in 1992 and 1997 is particularly very interesting - some stunning photographs as well.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I was remiss in saying "the same text," it should have been "self-same text," or "identical text."

I too should have been clearer when I wrote "collect evidence in support of that hypothesis" that was an incorrect comment and missed out a vital stage of the How To Collect Evidence In Support of Your Hypothesis guide!.

Of course all available evidence has to be assessed to see if the hypothesis has validity.