Originally posted by tabibito
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Mark's gospel: claimed deficiencies
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"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostArguments are usually presented in the opening paragraphs and followed by a discussion and then a conclusion. Otherwise it all ends up as a hopeless muddle.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
True enough. I'm told that more organised people can write introductions first, but I can't do it. Unfortunately, I never know in advance where research is going to take me, so introductions are usually written at the same time as conclusions.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe normal procedure is to develop a hypothesis, undertake research and collect evidence in support of that hypothesis and then write it up.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
The normal procedure is to develop a hypothesis, undertake research and collect evidence in support of that hypothesis and then write it up.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Current State of Play for Magdala Synagogues
1 Synagogue dated to pre 70CE - "While the temple was still standing."
1 Synagogue dated to 50 to 100CE - Magdala was destroyed in 67CE and reoccupied shortly afterward: with the estimated dates spanning both sides of those events, it is one of the weirdest ranges that I have ever encountered.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
That risks tainting the results."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
If the evidence is not there the hypothesis falls.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostCurrent State of Play for Magdala Synagogues
1 Synagogue dated to pre 70CE - "While the temple was still standing."
1 Synagogue dated to 50 to 100CE - Magdala was destroyed in 67CE and reoccupied shortly afterward: with the estimated dates spanning both sides of those events, it is one of the weirdest ranges that I have ever encountered.
Archaeological evidence for the existence of synagogues in the Second Temple period is inconclusive. The public structures discovered at the fortresses of Masada, Herodium, and Gamla were remodelled to local assembly halls during the years of revolt against Rome, when it was extremely difficult for the congregation to travel to Jerusalem to participate in the Temple worship. Other remains are the basalt structure at Capernaum, which is in debate, and another synagogue, now lost, reported at Korazim. The recently uncovered public structures at Hasmonean Jericho and in several Jewish villages - Horvat 'Ethri, Migdal I, Modi'in, and Qiryat Sefer, are also deemed to be synagogues of this period. However, remains of such structures in the period are rare. They may have been covered or destroyed by later structures. Moreover, they lack distinctive architectural features and symbols making classification difficult.
These structures built while the Second Temple stood in Jerusalem are considered to be synagogues on the basis of circumstantial evidence. They share some similarities in their architectural plan and therefore, in function, even though no actual proof has been uncovered [Hachlili 1988: 84-86; 1997:40-43]. The structures might have had a focal point in the centre of the hall: however they lack the most important feature of the later synagogue, the Torah shrine.
Hachlili considers Migdal I [dating from 50 BCE - 100 CE] to be generally accepted as a synagogue but doubts remain as to whether Migdal II [Spring House dating from 1st century CE] was a synagogue.
It therefore appears that there was nothing untoward about what Price wrote in his 2006 work concerning "the depiction of synagogues scattered throughout Galilee when in fact they seem to have been largely confined to Judaea before CE 70."
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
In the realms of hard science, yes. In other realms, not so much. And when it comes to Christian studies, the basis for this hypothesis (in other realms ...) is in the number of different interpretations that get assigned to the same text.
Concerning the different interpretations of ancient Christian texts we unfortunately have no original MSS for any of these texts.
All that we have are the copies that have survived and come down to us and we know that among those copies of the same text there is not always agreement.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
In the opening to chapter 2 of her work Ancient Synagogues - Archaeology and Art: New Discoveries and Current Research, [2013, Brill] Rachel Hachlili notes:
Archaeological evidence for the existence of synagogues in the Second Temple period is inconclusive. The public structures discovered at the fortresses of Masada, Herodium, and Gamla were remodelled to local assembly halls during the years of revolt against Rome, when it was extremely difficult for the congregation to travel to Jerusalem to participate in the Temple worship. Other remains are the basalt structure at Capernaum, which is in debate, and another synagogue, now lost, reported at Korazim. The recently uncovered public structures at Hasmonean Jericho and in several Jewish villages - Horvat 'Ethri, Migdal I, Modi'in, and Qiryat Sefer, are also deemed to be synagogues of this period. However, remains of such structures in the period are rare. They may have been covered or destroyed by later structures. Moreover, they lack distinctive architectural features and symbols making classification difficult.
These structures built while the Second Temple stood in Jerusalem are considered to be synagogues on the basis of circumstantial evidence. They share some similarities in their architectural plan and therefore, in function, even though no actual proof has been uncovered [Hachlili 1988: 84-86; 1997:40-43]. The structures might have had a focal point in the centre of the hall: however they lack the most important feature of the later synagogue, the Torah shrine.
Hachlili considers Migdal I [dating from 50 BCE - 100 CE] to be generally accepted as a synagogue but doubts remain as to whether Migdal II [Spring House dating from 1st century CE] was a synagogue.
It therefore appears that there was nothing untoward about what Price wrote in his 2006 work concerning "the depiction of synagogues scattered throughout Galilee when in fact they seem to have been largely confined to Judaea before CE 70."
Throughout those parts of chapter 2 available through google books, Hachlili accepts the identification of the relevant structures as synagogues. Further information to hand - synagogues existed in Egypt from the third century BCE, (confirmed Hachlili: page 14 (d)) about 100 years before Pharisees were thought of - the implication that Pharisees were integral to the establishment and function of synagogues doesn't seem tenable (confirmed Hachlili: page 18). Also, as noted previously, the synagogue could exist without any dedicated meeting hall, (confirmed: page 10.)1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
If the source evidence is not there or challenges the hypothesis the hypothesis needs to be reconsidered or rejected.
Concerning the different interpretations of ancient Christian texts we unfortunately have no original MSS for any of these texts.
All that we have are the copies that have survived and come down to us and we know that among those copies of the same text there is not always agreement.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
- 1 like
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostIf the evidence is not there the hypothesis falls.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Tis an interesting book. I'll have to dawdle off the the library sometime in the next few days to see the further detail. The critical point is "remodelled" to serve as public structures (from what, and when?).
Throughout those parts of chapter 2 available through google books, Hachlili accepts the identification of the relevant structures as synagogues. Further information to hand - synagogues existed in Egypt from the third century BCE, (confirmed Hachlili: page 14 (d)) about 100 years before Pharisees were thought of - the implication that Pharisees were integral to the establishment and function of synagogues doesn't seem tenable (confirmed Hachlili: page 18). Also, as noted previously, the synagogue could exist without any dedicated meeting hall, (confirmed: page 10.)
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
I was remiss in saying "the same text," it should have been "self-same text," or "identical text."
Of course all available evidence has to be assessed to see if the hypothesis has validity.Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 02-28-2022, 10:56 AM."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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