Originally posted by Machinist
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The Argument From Reason...
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Originally posted by seer View Post
No, it is not necessary for survival. The vast majority of creatures, even living in community, do not possess self-awareness.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Consciousness was not “created” – that would imply a ‘Creator’ and there is NO good reason to think such an entity exists. Consciousness, as with everything else in the evolutionary process, evolved via Natural Selection with the selective enhancement of specific qualities (tool-making skills, language, etc.) to better survive.
https://samharris.org/the-mystery-of-consciousness/
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Originally posted by Machinist View PostSelf reflection/awareness is an evolved survival mechanism?
I suppose that could be argued if we're talking survival of the entire species. Surely the ability to self reflect upon one's own existence, is the basis for empathy. And where there is empathy, populations will swell. The species or race itself, in this case, the human race has survived through empathy. If the empathy did not evolve, humans would have gone extinct.
Just taking a stab at it here...from an evolutionary view.
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Self reflection/awareness is an evolved survival mechanism?
I suppose that could be argued if we're talking survival of the entire species. Surely the ability to self reflect upon one's own existence, is the basis for empathy. And where there is empathy, populations will swell. The species or race itself, in this case, the human race has survived through empathy. If the empathy did not evolve, humans would have gone extinct.
Just taking a stab at it here...from an evolutionary view.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
Nope, that was not the question. Show when and how the evolutionary process created consciousness.
The vast majority of creatures survive just fine without self-awareness. So it is not necessary for survival.
And I don't know what you mean by other animals
https://australian.museum/learn/science/human-evolution/humans-are-apes-great-apes/
- does a monkey have an inner life, experience and thoughts as a human?
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/oct/06/apes-can-guess-what-others-are-thinking-just-like-humans
How would you know?
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Yes it is. Consciousness is dependent upon the action of the evolved living brain. And our decision-making processes are grounded in the memories and experiences stored in the neurons and pathways of the physical, living brain. All mammals and many other creatures have evolved neurological substrates complex enough to support consciousness – not just the human animal.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
No, consciousness, which is necessary for all of this, is not the obvious result of blind evolutionary forces.
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
I reference computers in order to dispose of the first premise in the argument in your OP. There is nothing non-natural about computers. They are well understood, completely determined, and capable of causing events due to propositional content.
I reference evolution when you claim that the non-rational can't create the rational. It's obvious that we are a result of evolution. The claim that our minds are somehow separate, and not a product of evolution, is just ad hoc, motivated reasoning. Keep in mind that if you want to claim that our minds are not the result of evolution, it's your burden of proof.
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Originally posted by seer View PostYet you keep referencing computers where their ability is merely an extension of our rational abilities: rational = rational. I don't see how that is evidence for the non-rational creating the rational.
I reference evolution when you claim that the non-rational can't create the rational. It's obvious that we are a result of evolution. The claim that our minds are somehow separate, and not a product of evolution, is just ad hoc, motivated reasoning. Keep in mind that if you want to claim that our minds are not the result of evolution, it's your burden of proof.
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
Obviously, we're never going to agree on this. I find it plausible that we are the result of unguided evolution, and you don't.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostIt's your argument. We don't have to show anything. We just have to note that you haven't supported your first premise at all, and it appears to be false (since computer applications can read maps), so your whole argument has no basis.
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(At this point I expect you to try to shift the burden of proof).Originally posted by seer View PostI think it's your burden to show the first premise of your argument is true.
Last edited by Roy; 10-14-2021, 09:20 AM.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
But they don't, electrons do no such thing. We do, they only spit out what we programmed in. So computers are not really making rational inferences.
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