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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The Argument From Reason...
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
I stand corrected: honest, reliable, credentialled, and qualified people, whom I have never met, with my acceptance of their attributes being based on the assessments by people whom I have also not met. I also accept the proffered evidence as valid without actually personally verifying that it has not been fabricated. A lot of faith is exercised in accepting the existence of exoplanets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exoplanet
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Cosmologists have provided abundant evidence of exoplanets. It is accepted science, NOT mere hearsay from “honest and reliable people.”
Last edited by tabibito; 01-30-2022, 04:09 AM.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
I haven't seen one; therefore only anecdotal evidence supports their existence. I accept their existence as real only on the basis of witness reports, which I believe have been made by honest and reliable people. I cannot demonstrate that the witnesses are not deluded or lying.
With regard to God and miracles, that is indeed the argument.
The reports were not just disbelieved, they were declared false and ridiculed.Last edited by Tassman; 01-30-2022, 03:55 AM.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Belief in exoplanets is verified by their actual existence as predicted by cosmologists as highly probable based upon existing knowledge.
The argument is NOT that [I]“that facts can only exist if they can be verified”
OF COURSE, platypuses’ existence was wholly unaffected by verification. Obviously. But without formal proof, the reports of such exotic creatures on the other side of the world was doubted.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Absence of a reasonable cause for disbelief would be one reason - if encounters with the witness have demonstrated the witness to be reliable, his account can be accepted. Were that not so, I would be justified in denying the existence of exoplanets, among a large number of other phenomena.
Which demonstrates the weakness of the argument that facts can only exist, or be accepted, if they can be verified.
Which has absolutely no impact on the reality - though unverified, the facts indubitably exist.
The fact of the platypus' existence was wholly unaffected by verification. Quite a number of species existed prior to their discovery. That their existence was unknown had no influence on reality; bacteria being a particularly well known example. Fact and reality are not established by verification - fact and reality becoming believable or known does often rely on verification.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Why would one ASSUME anything of the sort?
And therefore, cannot be shown to be true.
Yes, facts exist can independently of substantiation. But they cannot be shown objectively to exist without verified evidence.
The fact of platypuses existing was finally established by producing verified evidence of their existence. The same applies to black swans and a host of other examples. Otherwise, they belong in the same category as the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Now that is one extraordinary claim. Assuming that the event actually happened, it is as true as anything that science can verify:
one of a very large number of types of event that cannot be verified by the scientific method.
Come now - facts (particularly where events are concerned) frequently exist independently of substantiation. And there's the whole realm of "anecdotal evidence" to consider, with eyewitness testimony being relegated to the status of "anecdotal evidence" as a means to discredit "eyewitness testimony" all too frequently, where it should properly be reserved for second or third person reports. Nor should it be forgotten that the scientific method actually assesses eyewitness testimony and even anecdotal evidence to formulate hypotheses.
There is an obligation on the person who challenges the claim to produce evidence in support of the challenge. Should a person alleging that a claim is false (your aforementioned delusional, or a false memory etc. etc. etc.) there would need to be some reasonable grounds established before the claim should be rejected. The reports of initial responses in Europe to the descriptions of the platypus being a salutary cautionary tale.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
How is the tea drinking less true than anything else? It isn't. An old bear dies in the woods, it turns to dust, no witnesses - that remains a fact despite the lack of evidence.
But your initial argument was that your conscious experience of it was not a material occurrence because ‘consciousness’ is not material. Whereas, in reality, there is no coherent energy medium for the functioning of consciousness beyond the material activity of the living brain. In short, consciousness is not an independent entity.
Everything you know comes through personal experience Tass, there is nothing else. .
Ten scientists can tell you A, but A is still filtered through your subjective personal experience
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Your “tea drinking” is NOT “as true as anything verified by science” unless it is verified by some sort of evidence. Hypothetically, it could be delusional, or a false memory etc. etc. etc.
If unsubstantiated, the only “FACT” is in your own mind.
You have yet to explain how you determine the “truth” of your personal subjective experience when another’s subjective experience conflicts with yours.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Your “tea drinking” is NOT “as true as anything verified by science” unless it is verified by some sort of evidence. Hypothetically, it could be delusional, or a false memory etc. etc. etc.
If unsubstantiated, the only “FACT” is in your own mind.
You have yet to explain how you determine the “truth” of your personal subjective experience when another’s subjective experience conflicts with yours.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
Of course the fact of my tea drinking is as true as anything verified by science. It is a FACT, and it is TRUE.
But verification, or not, does not change the FACT of the matter.
You have yet to explain how you determine the “truth” of your personal subjective experience when another’s subjective experience conflicts with yours.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Indeed. It is historically verifiable. But your argument goes further. You claim that a purely subjective experience is “as true as any verifiable" scientific discovery”. It is NOT.
But without verification there is no means of determining the “truth” of your personal subjective experience compared to that of another’s, whose subjective experience conflicts with yours.
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From a Theistic, "meta" perspective (if you will), then what events actually happen, even subjective experiences, are going to be "true". If you're making objective verification a prerequisite before something is "true", then obviously some things are never going to be proven.
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